AIBU to think that Quora is endorsing domestic violence?

[FizzAfterSix]

I was reading a thread on Quora about John Lennon and the thorny subject of his alleged domestic violence to both his wives came up.

I just couldn’t believe it when commentators started excusing domestic violence because he might’ have had bipolar or some unspecified mental illness. And then a commentator wrote:<br /> <br /> I’m not ashamed to say I’d hit a woman with equal force if she hit me. You’re a woman and you should know because you asked for it….its called equality’

Maybe I have too much time on my hands but as a victim of DV myself this really got my goat and I replied:

Wow. Women are physically weaker than men so if you hit a woman 'with equal force' you'd probably kill her.<br /> <br /> You sound like a disgusting wife beater trying to justify male abuse. Pathetic’.<br /> <br /> OK, I apologise for using strong words like, um, pathetic, but I was even more shocked to get a poncy email from Quora telling me off. <br /> <br /> Hello,<br /> We recently found some of your content that violates Quora's Be Nice, Be Respectful policy (See What is Quora's "Be Nice, Be Respectful" policy?).<br /> <br /> Please keep this policy in mind when interacting with other people on Quora. If you continue posting content that violates this policy, you may be banned from using Quora. For more information, see: How do I appeal a Quora Moderation decision?<br /> <br /> AIBU unreasonable to be thoroughly pissed off that Quora objected to my pretty mild language responding to a commentator sanctifying domestic abuse? Why is it that I am being accused of not being nice’ and respectful’ when surely they should be going after a man who boasts about not being ashamed to say I’d hit a woman with equal force…’ etc etc.

It’s horrifying that 50,000 women a year are killed by their partners (according to a UN report in 2018) and extraordinary that mainstream social media sites are just compounding the problem like this.

This is a link to the thread:
www.quora.com/Was-John-Lennon-really-a-jerk/answer/Artie-DeMonte/comment/49823696

[Frecklesonmyarm]

No one is trying to deflect from that.

It's actually nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

No one is saying more women abuse.

What people are saying that it's not the default position to accept being hit if you happen to be stronger. That goes for all relationships. Families, friends, romantic.

That abusers exploit their power over their partners. That power isn't always just about physical power. Often it is, but not always. When it physical power is used to abuse someone, they also make sure they have other ways of controlling them that doesnt come down to physical strength.

And that ALL society needs to be involved in solving this.

smother isn't making sense, because according to her the fact that more women are being abused means woman as a whole group should sit back and let men sort it out.

Because that's really helping current victims and future victims of DV. We are arent committing it as much as men so it's not our issue to solve.

All abuse is wrong. As yes its 2 different conversations. But I never understand on MN why some people refuse to accept they should side by side. It's not that bad if men are abused, because it's not as often, or they are stronger blah blah....
.which is perpetuating the alpha Male view that is wrong in the first place. Men are stronger therefore they cant be abused. How does that help?

If all abuse is wrong, it's all wrong but How we tackle each situation may be different.

[Ottercup]

Just for the benefit of people who haven’t followed the link. It’s true that 30% of DV homicide victims are men, but of course that doesn’t mean that they’re all being killed by women: most are the victims of other men (romantic partners, fathers or partners’ ex’s). About 12% of domestic homicides involve female killers by my reckoning.

Yeah that still sounds like a male DV problem doesn't it

[tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz]

OP I think I the man on the other forum was a dick for saying striking back was "equality". A comment like that is for me often an indicator of toxic masculinity. Or at the very least, a twat.

And as for DV which kills two women in Britain a week being an issue for both sexes to fix? Holy shit. Until more men own and become accountable for the harm some men cause it will never, ever be fixed no matter what women do to help.

And people please stop saying gender it's sex

[Frecklesonmyarm]

And as for DV which kills two women in Britain a week being an issue for both sexes to fix? Holy shit. Until moremenown and become accountable for the harm some men cause it will never, ever be fixed no matter what women do to help.

Very true. That's why I said society needs to fix it. Not just women, not just men either.

Actually, since trans women's crimes can be recorded as crimes committed by women, its clear reporting of instances use Gender, not sex.

I am if a different opinion on that. But there is becoming a blurred line between what gender and/or sex is.

[tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz]

No Freckles sex is biological reality gender is a social construct. HTH un-blur that line.

It's pretty well known that in order to rehabilitate behaviour the perpetrator needs to wholly recognise and take responsibility for their actions. 3rd parties can intervene and help but until that first step happens any change will be short term and then behaviour will revert back. Like a plaster in a way.

So yes maybe there are ways women can help later and being conditioned to make the work a happier safer place in general most women will. And already do.

But until MEN make the first step happen there will be no change.

[tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz]

Apologies second paragraph should have said behaviour will often revert back

[Slowknitter]

The fact that male violence is a huge societal problem, and therefore needs more public resources and attention spending on it than female violence, does not in any way alter how we should view the dynamics and fairness of an individual case where a man hits a woman or a woman hits a man. That one man or that one woman are not responsible for the level of violence of their whole sex. Retaliating with equal force in order to defend yourself when you are the victim of an attack is perfectly reasonable whatever sex you are. Why is the relative strength of men relevant if we are talking about someone using equal force?

[Frecklesonmyarm]

NoFrecklessex is biological reality gender is a social construct. HTH un-blur that line.

Really? Shocker? However while crimes and surveys are still done on gender, the line is blurred. HTH you see the actual facts of the situation.

No has suggested men dont have role to play. We all do. That's the point. Not just men, women need to be part of the change too.

Look at every stride forward women have made, we have been part of it. Lots of people and institutions have to play their part. Abuse is a society issue.

Slow knitted makes an excellent point. If you son is being attacked, it doesnt matter if it rarely happens to men. Or that he might be stronger.

According to some on this thread he should take it anyway, since men are more likely to abuse and kill women. And if he reports it, he is probably lying and is guilty of abuse himself.

[tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz]

Agree with your first point and I'm well aware of how some parties are happy for lines to be blurred. I misinterpreted you initially so apologies for that. I think it's important we keep repeating the reality even at the risk of being parrot like

With regards the responsibility for violence I think we also agree everyone has a part to play overall. Where we differ is until I see and hear more men call each other out on their behaviour then anything else done is pointless.

My concern with the "equal force " thing is most men I know are physically stronger than me, end of. If they were to defend themselves against a strike from me how sure can they be that they are indeed using equal force? I'm sure some could be measured about it but not all. However hitting anyone is rarely right.

[Frecklesonmyarm]

i think it's important we keep repeating the reality even at the risk of being parrot like

Definitely. I was shouting at the TV, the other day, when they were discussing issues on the local news confusing the 2. I do agree it needs pointing out.

With regards the responsibility for violence I think we also agree everyone has a part to play overall. Where we differ is until I see and hear more men call each other out on their behaviour then anything else done is pointless.

I get you point that men need to do it. I agree that men need to do it and it will have a bigger impact if men do it too. I just dont agree it's pointless. Slower without me challenging it but not pointless.

On you equal force point, they dont know. But then you dont know if you hit someone what damage you can do. I have been kickboxing for 20 years. I know I can inflict a lot of damage.

What I also know is that someone who isn't trained and isn't that strong can still inflict a lot of damage. If you catch someone wrong, hita vulnerable place. Being weaker doesnt mean you cant dont inflict damage on a stronger person. The majority, of 'one punch' incidents are not intended to cause so much damage.

Equal force is equal force and either party, weaker or stronger, can miss time, misshit and cause huge amounts of damage.

That's why no one should be attacking their partner. But I believe if you do attack your partner, and they retaliate that's a consequence of your actions.

SC didn't use equal force. She killed her husband, but I still think a retrial is appropriate. Her using more force isn't the whole story

[tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz]

Oh and def women will plug away and keep challenging, of that there is no doubt!

I think in some instances yes I could inflict more damage than I realise I just think the odds are what a man perceives equal force is likely to do me much more damage.

[HoldMeCloserTonyDanza]

The only thing sadder than letting some internet argument with anonymous randoms bother you is dragging said argument into a whole other forum.

If we cared what some idiot on Quora thought we’d be reading there.

[Frecklesonmyarm]

I think in some instances yes I could inflict more damage than I realise I just think the odds are what a man perceives equal force is likely to do me much more damage.

Probably, but then the weaker person still has no right to lay their hands on the stronger one. If you decide to abuse someone stronger than you, you are doing it getting on the fact that they wont retaliate. You are exploiting that fact. Just as abusers that are stronger, exploit the fact that they are stronger.

[PengAly]

@Frecklesonmyarm i completely agree with you and understand exactly what you are saying. Sadly PPs on this thread will continue to twist your words and miss the point entirly. Mumsnet is a crazy place but how depressing to see women on here say its ok to for a woman to hit a man- its never ok for anyone to be hitting but its basic logic, if you hit someone then expect them to hit back.

Op, you were in the wrong and actually were quite horrible to call thar man a "wife beater" you deserved that warning email you got

[PregnantSea]

How about nobody hits anybody? That would be nice. These "can a man hit a woman if she hit him first" arguments annoy the heck out of me. Nobody should be hitting full stop. None of it is justified.

[Smotheroffive]

You absolutely are trying to deflect that the vast majority of victims are women and children.

The comparison with not blaming children for child abuse is the same, its just that you can't see it, and you sail very close to the wind, and actually are victim-blaming women.

The people responsible for male violent are men, so why should women be made responsible for that? Decent men despise male abusers, and its rife. There is a thread running atm where a poster has said that male staff having sex with students is so frequent as to be unremarkable, and also equally as importantly doesn't get reported!! The male patriarchy sees to it that women who complain are name-called and disadvantaged, so don't come here spouting such utter and frankly offensive rubbish

[Frecklesonmyarm]

PengAly thank you.

PregnantSea that would be the ideal. Which is why I believe we all need to do something.

Smotheroffive you are wrong. I am not blaming abused women for their abuse. I am saying everyone in society needs to do something. The comparison with a child who is the victim of abuse doesnt work but a child isn't in a position to do something. Adults are.

Women arent responsible for Male violence. I never said they were. That doesnt mean that women arent part of stopping it. Women had to be part of getting the vote. There will be no strides forward if half of society say well it's their problem. The person responsible for abuse is the abuser. But society is responsible for not accepting it anymore. We need to be standing up for those that are trapped and cant stand up for themselves.

How does that help anyone to say it's not our issue? How does it help those in abusive relationships. And if women can just say 'its not our problem', then the men who dont abuse their partners can do the same. They arent committing it so why should they do anything?

Decent men despise male abusers, and its rife. There is a thread running atm where a poster has said that male staff having sex with students is so frequent as to be unremarkable, and also equally as importantly doesn't get reported!!

Yes decent despise Male abusers. Those men are the ones that wont hit back. Regardless. Because they dont want to be viewed as an abuser too.

And yes, people should be able to come forward and make complaints about me abusing their position. As I said the whole of society needs to change. It's a huge change that we all have to be part of.

[Smotheroffive]

child who is the victim of abuse doesnt work but a child isn't in a position to do something. Adults are

You see that's where you're wrong thinking.
I really don't understand your energy for fighting for men and making women responsible for their abuses. It is victim-blaming.

Stop fighting for men on a women's forum and spe d your energies trying to support the women and children who are at high risk everyday and those making 000's of calls daily to report the harm going on. The women and their DC dying, being murdered.

Men need to stop this.

[Frecklesonmyarm]

So you think as a group child could stop child abuse?

As a group adults can. It's both men and women.

This is not a women forum. You are wrong. It's a parents forum. I support all victims of abuse. Regardless of who they are and who their abuser is. I dont make excuse for the abuser.

But I recognise that unless everyone who can, does change to it and stand up to it, face it.

I was abused and raped at the hands of man. That doesnt mean I cant see past my own experience and blame all men for it and tell men THEY must do something.

You logic doesnt stand up. You want women to say it's not their problem to solve. Despite it mainly impacting women and children. And if women dont have to do anything, for other women and their children, why do men who arent committing the abuse have to do anything either?

[Tennesseewhiskey]

Smotheroffive you are purposely twisting and misreading freckles posts.

[PengAly]

Smotheroffive you are either not comprehending freckles posts correctly or purposly being obtuse. She is not victim blaming and actually points out a lot of valid arguments about why we have such a DV problem across all types of people. If you are misunderstanding her than please go and re-read her posts and come back. If you are just being obtuse, then please stop twisting words. Its really of no use and isnt helpful to the overall.discussion.

[Oakenbeach]

I’m not ashamed to say I’d hit a woman with equal force if she hit me. You’re a woman and you should know because you asked for it….its called equality

This is a very strange line to attack in the interests of calling out DV. I’m not advocating an “eye for an eye” as a general rule, but responding in kind, and with equal force, is hardly abuse. (You appears to be interpreting “equal”as “in proportion to my strength” which I’d argue isn’t a natural interpretation at all).

Whereas women are disproportionately affected by DV, and their plight should be the focus of any campaigning on the matter, it doesn’t follow that DV isn’t an issue for a non-negligible number of men too, and insisting they should just soak up the punches, because as a sex they’re not as affected as women on average, is wrong, sexist and counter-productive.

[Smotheroffive]

It is a male problem. If it was any other crime the victim wouldn't be hebed responsible in any way for it, other than taking reasonable precautions.

I think youll find its not me twisting words, see further up. I simply do not agree at all.

You cannot make women responsible for male abuse. The education specialists know that women in abuse are often lower than the DC and have even less choice or options or anything than the DC do, and are often abused by their DC also as part of the perps tactics.

I hear that you have suffered abuse, you havebsaid ot already, but you see, when you make a statement about you not letting that blind you etc...that is twisting and unprompted. A PA way of trying to assert that's happening, otherwise why would you say it. So no, I can't agree to engaging in that kind of nonsense.

Please do speak to support agencies about the realities of a power and control situation. You seem to believe women have some power when being raped and abused,but isn't that the point? You seem to believe its different for women; how different can it be when they are regularly murdered.

I will not be party to the twisting and I will keep stating the well know dynamics

[HeckyPeck]

The commenter sounded like a dick with his you wanted equality bit and you sounded like a dick by calling him a wife beater!

[OftenHangry]

I think I can see ehere smithers's problem is.

When people say men AND women need to do something, they are not saying the female victim is resposible.

Just that as a society we ALL need to make sure we try to make this better for ALL victims of DV. Men and women. Children and adults.

We all can mould the future generation to do better and fight this problem in the current one. Join the forces.