Graduate medicine in my 30s- complete change of tack.

[Thinkingwhattodonext]

Morning everyone,

I'm 31 and at a point in my career (civil service) where I'm happy with what I've achieved (management grade in an interesting international role) but feel I want to do something different and am becoming increasingly interested in medicine for a number of reasons, as i have been for a good while now.

I've been looking into graduate entry courses and wondered if any of you had any advice on entering medicine at this stage in life.

I'm researching and picking a lot of brains in real life but am aware there's a lot of experience on here.

I have non- science A levels and a 2:2 in a languages based subject (an ongoing health problem means I was unable to attend some of my finals but is better managed now). I see that Notts for one accepts 2:2 non science degrees but are other places likely to with mitigating circs? Or is the competition too high?

I really enjoyed science at school and got A* or As at GCSE (I'd have to check), i just had no idea what i wanted to do at that point and went with languages/ creative subjects for A-level.

I am fascinated by medical microbiology and tropical medicine in particular although I would imagine this is not a particularly in-demand field so is not a set plan but I'd maybe be interested in working overseas with an NGO eventually.

Would I be too old? I would like a family but am single at the moment.

My academic achievements aren't great (post GCSE) as without boring you all with details, I went through something quite traumatic in my A-level year and then had the health issues during my degree but I would say I have academic aptitude and a good work ethic.

I'd be extremely grateful for any insight on whether I'd stand a chance at getting in via the graduate route/ another way and whether this would be a good idea at my stage!

Thanks in advance!

GP here. Don't do it. You'll presumably need to do Alevels first, so you won't be starting medicine til, what, age 34? qualifying near 40? and you want to meet someone and have kids in that time?

People are leaving the NHS is droves, life as a junior dr is truly shit with often no notice for rota changes, you can be allocated to hospitals a long way from where you live and an often dangerously understaffed working environment. Read the full details of the Hadiza Bawa-Garba case and decide if you'd be happy in that environment.

If you're interested in healthcare generally I'd suggest something like radiography, physio, OT, or SALT - shorter training and much better quality of life once you've qualified.

What about a science related course? Radiography/ midwifery/ OT/ SLT?

What about medical research in the area of interest?

Lots of people go into medicine at your age and older and do very well. I don’t know much about the specifics. graduate entry but some things to consider.

1. Finances - being a medical student means being on placement a lot and makes part time work harder.
2. Flexibility - moving jobs often in training, fixed leave/ lack of flexibility in leave, getting rota last minute
3. The reality of the job - have you had any relevant medical experiences, do you feel you will cope with death, emergencies, the responsibility. Interview panels would want to know you were really ready and committed.
4. Going back to being very junior - how will you feel about this, especially as some of your ‘seniors’ will likely be younger than you.

Not trying to put you off but important to be realistic. It’s a tough road and whatever specialty you end up in you will still have to do general hospital jobs as part of your foundation years.

So here goes, I've just asked my other half this. She did graduate medicine after doing a biology degree and working for a charity.
So just a quick timeline for you.
You will do a 4/5 year course, then hopefully pass your exams. You will then be a First year doctor sent to a hospital not of your choosing which could be anywhere depending on the deanery you get into. (You have to apply to them) after the first 2 years you then get to pick a speciality (again you apply to different deaneries) so you may potentially be moving across the country.
There are different routes into ID, you could do Paediatrics and this would be 8 years before you are a consultant. You would move position every 6 months, possibly hospitals as well. (2years when you become a reg) you could go via GUM (sexual diseases) if your interested in Aids for example. Or straight ID, these are harder to get in to because as you say there aren't that many positions so it's hotly contested.
Then factor in the effect it will have on your life, working long days, weekends and nights for several years. Can you survive on the pay as you will be taking a pay cut when you start.

Wouldn't do it.
It's really really hard as a junior doctor. The hours average at 48 over a 16 week period but in reality you can be rota'd for an 80 hour week. No guarenteed breaks.
It's a really toxic culture, bullying is rife.
Tropical medicine and medical microbiology are pretty competitive. It's the acute high burnout specialities that aren't. What about biomedical sciences as a degree?

Could you look into finding work with an overseas NGO now rather than getting into it by doing medicine? It seems like a very stressful and convoluted way to do it.

The Bawa-Garba case is the straw breaking this camel's back. I'm currently having to negotiate with my next placement because they're trying to give me a role with more seniority than I feel safe with. They didn't even inform me, btw. I just found out when I had the rota sent through.

My last on-call shift I spent most of it on the phone, not actually seeing patients, but having to speak with bed managers/ward managers etc because a patient who was not safe to be on our ward had to come back after a complicated procedure, and the bed that had been promised on the other ward vanished into thin air.

A lot of stuff that has nothing to do with you gets dumped on you because you're The Doctor. Incompatible-with-life blood results that drop into your lap at 16.55 on a Friday afternoon. Lengthy phone-calls with the Coroner's office and time spent in the mortuary even though you're bleep is going off every 2 minutes, but it needs sorting as there's a grieving family that needs to sort out a funeral. A single toilet break, if you're lucky. It's the reality unfortunately.

Medical Microbiology is a really interesting field and I would thoroughly recommend it - have you thought of a career in science rather than directly in medicine? You can still make a contribution to public health, maybe in vaccine development?

Thanks very much for responses so far, really useful insights.

Pretending yes, I've read into the Bawa Garba case and frankly it terrifies me. Every medic I know says that could so easily have been them. If anything, that might be what puts me off, the culture and working conditions.

Moonrise raises the point of relevant experience, of which I have none, in all honesty. I wonder if this is something I can address while working.

ID is very competitive and a small specialty. Microbiology is bigger - however do not underestimate how much time you are going to spend in a lab.

ID was my dream specialty as a medical student. I gave up the idea after realising I found lab work unbelievably dull. Not regretted the choice.

If you haven't done science, I don't think you really know how you feel about this. For example as a junior doctor I would get work experience students come and tell me how fascinating my job was seeing me take blood. Er, no - that was a mind-numbing dross bit of my day because my hospital was too cheap to hire a phlebotomist.

I would suggest you really need to find out what the day job of a microbiologist involves, whether they would recommend being one and how long it takes to qualify as one eg do you have to do a PhD etc to get a chance of being a consultant.

The amount of time spent doing microbiology at medical school and in foundation years will be small.

I did it at 24, no regrets and I love my job. I would say don’t do it unless you are really sure though otherwise you will struggle with the tough bits. The early years are hard but it gets better as you go on.

Not many courses will accept you with a 2:2 as the competition is so high. I think Nottingham and St George’s may be an option but you would need to look into this and see whether further qualifications would be needed.

The ‘having a family’ side of things is also worth considering: med school is pretty tough and you move jobs a lot in the first few years as a doctor so it can be hard to meet someone and sustain a relationship. You may also have quite a lot of debt to pay off if you are using professional studies loans etc. to fund your course - it took me seven years after qualifying to clear all my student loans.

If having children is really important to you then I would think long and hard about going into medicine at your age especially if you already have an established career and decent lifestyle.

I have a very close relative who has done this with a 2:2, but in a science subject. It was very, very difficult for her to find a place, but now she’s on it she seems to be sailing through it! She had to do the GAMSAT several times which is a lot of hard work. She also worked as a carer for a few years so she was able to talk about that at interview which I think made her stand out.

Good luck if you do it. It’s hard but what a great career you could have.

It's a bit embarrassing but Infectious Diseases became interesting to me when my ex partner did a masters then a PhD in the field and i started proofreading his work. I saw how much time he spent in the lab (which he loved, as opposed to wanting to work with the public as a medical Dr!) whereas the reason medicine appeals more is that I do quite like public- facing roles.

Just to be clear though, those are just ideas for areas of speciality. Would admissions panels expect candidates to have an idea of their eventual path mapped.out?

I am not a doctor but have seen the depth of commitment required to be one. Ars longa, vita brevis indeed. It's not something for someone who has reached the age of 31 and is casting around for something new because they are bored.

I always find these threads strange, I don't know too much about medicine, but I do know if you want to go in at A-level you need Chemistry A level and at least 2 more science A-levels, all at A or A* level, usually do a certain amount of work experience, and even a lot of people who are at that level are turned down.

We also have a shortage of doctors.

So why, if it is considered to produce a perfectly good doctor by do non-science A-levels, then do a non-science degree and then later decide to change to medicine in their 30s, is it not possible to widen the access at A-levels.
Either science (esp. Chemistry) A-level at high levels are needed so the former is right to do, or it isn't needed and so they could increase numbers of people to do the course and reduce the shortage of GPs etc.

A biomedical scientist apprenticeship is currently being advertised working in some of the fields that may interest you.

Would admissions panels expect candidates to have an idea of their eventual path mapped.out?

No, but they'll want to check you're committed to the cause, as it were

Thanks again to each one of you for your advice.

There is an MSc that I'm thinking of doing, African Studies and Health which i could study part time. Going by PPs, I would likely find it difficult to be accepted into medicine with a 2:2 and no experience, but would a good masters in a more relevant area be helpful? I'm well aware this is more time and expense!

honestly, don't bother going into medicine. any academic interest you have in any field will be worn away by the reality of the job - drudgery. not enough staff, toxic culture, and a sinking environment where patient expectations always exceed what we are able to offer.

the best piece of advice i have is choose another career. its not really about your age, more then end goal isn't worth it anymore. incase you didn't notice thats the burnout talking

I work for the NHS, and see student doctors come to us all the time. You'd be surprised how many very academically able students struggle - it's very long hours, A LOT of information to absorb in a short amount of time, and being able to apply this with very little support from senior staff members. With a 2:2 in a non-science subject, I suspect your application would not make it past the first round of admissions, and if it did, it would almost certainly be discarded with no relevant experience. I know personally a family member who achieved A*,B,B has just been rejected from medicine because she didn't get the A in Chemistry.

Have you also considered the MMIs and the UKCAT you have to undertake - would you feel confident alongside other candidates who decided at 16 to study medicine and have been coached in these things?

All things to consider. Your plan of a MSc seems sensible, but it's unclear whether you would be accepted due to a non-BSc degree?

As others have said the reality of being a doctor is not glamorous.

Thanks Pixiie and Vinobelle, really appreciate the honesty.

For the Masters, I have spoken to the faculty and should be accepted with the degree I have and experience in the region (it's too early to apply formally)

Will you be able to secure funding for a second degree? My understanding is that you can only have a tuition fee loan for your first degree...

Appreciate it may be different for medicine though

I would look at physio/OT/radiography/SLT personally - but avoid nursing! In the future you could possibly become a physicians associate.

Are you willing to take on a shedload of student loans?