To wonder how many female Mumsnetters actually meet the definition of 'woman' according to BACP (the main professional body for counsellors and psychotherapists)

[PimmsnLemonade]

www.bacp.co.uk/media/2334/bacp-gender-sexual-relationship-diversity-gpacp001.pdf

2.6 Gender identity: woman
Definitions

Whether trans or cisgender, intersex or not, many people identify as women. However, what this means varies a great deal depending on their other intersecting attributes. It is important not to assume, for example, that being a woman necessarily involves being able to bear children, or having XX sex chromosomes, or breasts. Being a woman in a British cultural context often means adhering to social norms of femininity, such as being nurturing, caring, social, emotional, vulnerable, and concerned with appearance.

However, of course, not all women adhere to all these things. For example some neurodiverse women (on the autistic/aspergic/ADHD spectrums) may struggle to express emotions, or with social situations. In some northern working-class contexts femininity is associated with strength and aggression. As always an intersectional understanding is vital and we need to be mindful that what is culturally regarded as the epitome of femininity is white, middle class, youthful, non-disabled, heterosexual, cisgender, and thin. This strongly shapes all women’s experiences of womanhood.

It doesn't describe me but I'm northern and a lesbian so, from the second paragraph, I'm not sure if that means I get a pass on some of the characteristics??

ompetitive, ambitious, independent, rational, tough, sexual, confident, dominant, taking risks, and caring about their work

Erm...one of us is ambitious (for the family not themselves) and cares about their work

One of us is dominant

We are both competitive (to a different degree) independent, rational and appear confident

So going by that I'm...erm...no idea!

I'm:
-able to bear children, or having XX sex chromosomes, or breasts. (tick all boxes)
-caring
-emotional
-concerned with appearance (only somewhat i.e. I wear makeup sometimes, dye hair, like dresses. So more to the "feminine" end of the spectrum where appearance stereotyping is concerned)

I'm also
-on the autistic/aspergic/ADHD spectrums)
and so
-may struggle to express emotions, or with social situations.

Oops but then I'm also...
-competitive,
-ambitious
-independent,
-rational,
-tough,
-sexual,
-confident,
-(somewhat) dominant

• caring about their work.

So WTAF am I?

What an utterly stereotypical and belittling crock of horseshit.

I'm sorry, but that has put me off ever using counselling or psychotherapy services. It makes them sound like they use junk science.

I think this world has got OCD. Constantly obsessed with labelling.

there are people who believe that they are men or women based on their biological sex

I don't believe I'm a woman based on my biological sex. I know I am. Who would have foreseen a few short years ago that this would become a controversial thing to say.

“Up until the last century or so, British people understood there to be one gender, rather than two ‘opposite sexes’: women were regarded as merely a somewhat inferior version of men.”

I will leave off typing eighty-seven angry paragraphs about Victorian Britain and leave it as: I fear they have got a bit confused.

There's men and there's women. Full stop. We don't need fringe groups telling us there are cis this, that and t'other. How someone feels on a particular day.

If I woke up and identified as a giraffe I'd be sectioned not given a bale of hay.

Wow. Is this supposed to be scientifically informed, evidence based assessment of cultural 'norms'?? Sounds totally made up. What evidence is this be based on? Any man and any women could have any or all of that list of attributes. Quick let's make a list if what is or is not a psychotherapist .... ummm...cardi and sandals are essential..ummm saying ummm a lot is too...hilarious nonsense dribble dribble away...

DH and I just had fun with this. We rated ourselves on each attribute and totted up.

I'm slightly more a woman than he is. I'm also slightly more a man than he is.

We both observed that it's just a bunch of stereotypes, and regressive ones at that.

I don't understand what you're getting worked up about. It lists the British cultural stereotypes of femininity and masculinity, emphasises the importance of remembering that lots of people don't align with these stereotypes and then reminds the therapist of the importance of a intersectional approach, taking into account class, race, ability, etc, and bearing in mind that the cultural pressure put on men and women to abide by those stereotypes can be very damaging. What's wrong with that?

Well. Duck me. That was clearlyvwritten by the misogynistic witch that passed herself off as pastoral manager in my old girls school. I could even laugh at her when I was a teen. As did every teacher and parent I knew. Are these people quite well?

So by those definitions, we're all non-binary

Oh dear.

Just shows what a load of nonsense it all is.

We are all a mix of different characteristics.
Otherwise known as our personality.

Our sex is fixed and unchanging.

I wear dresses, make up, have long hair, breasts, XX chromosomes etc, but I am competitive, care about my work, am the main earner, confident, sometimes wear jeans... but have also had 2 children...

What am I?

This is like a twisted version of guess who.

Yesterday I read that a frighteningly large number of young girls self-harm, and that gender stereotyping is a one major influencer driving this. Today I see that the BCAP has some incredibly regressive stereotypes of women which it thinks are great.

There's a two and a two here which I'm pretty sure make four. Where are these young girls supposed to go for actual help?

Oh shit, I'm a man! I'd better tell DH he's actually in a gay marriage!

peachgreen - because it doesn’t separate out ‘man’ and ‘woman’ as things that exist separately from a collection of cultural stereotypes. The fact that it correctly realised these cultural stereotypes vary is kind of beside the point, given this. It is hard to discuss the harm that stereotypes can do to women, if you’re defining ‘woman’ as a descriptive term encompassing people who share these stereotypes.

I am so glad I grew up before all of this. Some counsellor would probably fuck me up if I were a child now, because I liked my hair short, trousers, playing with cars and barbies, climbing trees, running around in a mud.
Now I like dresses, long hair, not so much into cars, though not even into barbies, and I am too fat to climb trees but still don't fear the mud...

I fit into both categories now, man and woman, so wth am I 😂
Oh! I know! I am a modern woman who can be emotionally stable, have a career, be able to stand up for herself.

(I think it probably means to criticise the harm that gender stereotypes can do, but because it’s so totally incoherent about what it means by ‘gender’ in the first place it can’t even get close.)

That’s made me feel really angry.

53rdWay But it literally says "However, what this means varies a great deal depending on their other intersecting attributes." It defines the stereotypes and then emphasises the fact that women do NOT all align with these stereotypes.

If you're (not you personally, the general "you"!) angry that it doesn't talk about biological sex that's fine - I don't personally agree, but I do see why people would prefer the distinction to be made, and I definitely get your specific point there. But to say that it's saying that all women are a certain way is patently wrong, and that's what a lot of others seem to think it's doing.

Nope, all the nopes. I'm a woman because that's what I am, not what I feel like.

FFS this is outrageous.

I'm bloody lost with all this malarkey. I give up! I don't need a freaking label. I know I'm a woman, female, MissusGeneHunt. No more complex than that.

I'm certainly not freaking 'cis' though.

By the definitions above, I'm everything but nothing! Grrrrrr.

Nurturing? NO
Caring? YES
Social? YES
Emotional? YES
Vulnerable? DEFINITELY NOT
Concerned with appearance? NOT OFTEN

I AM a woman. I was born one, am one now and will remain one.

^They could have said, there are people who believe that they are men or women based on their biological sex, and there are people who believe that they are men or women based on their identification with the traditional gender roles in our society. But I suspect that for the TRA lobby that wouldn't have been enough. We don't just have to accept what they believe about themselves, we have to apply it to ourselves as well.

This