AIBU to expect my DH who has a good degree and published his own book to know better?

[thisisdavina]

I think his grammar is apalling.

This morning he asked....

'Did we ought to get the children sitting at the table for breakfast?'

He insists on saying 'did we ought to...' everytime he asks a question like this.

I know his family hail from Yorkshire but isn't using past, present and future tense in one very small sentence utter nonsense?

Or is it me being thick?

Ok in the general scheme of things, this isn't really important stuff or anything but I told him if he said it one more time I would 'Mumsnet it'

rofl - at least he gets the mop out!

I'm sorry but I don't go along with this whole "there's no such thing as incorrect grammar" malarkey. Whilst it may be technically correct, it is only to the same extent that for example, there is no such thing as bad manners - only different cultural norms. I certainly wouldn't put up with my children chewing with their mouth open, spitting in the street, not saying please or thankyou etc etc although of course all of those things are considered fine in other parts of the world. I'm happy to accept regional dialect but I wouldn' put up with "I done" or dropped g's or non-promounciation of 'th' etc

I'm sorry but I don't go along with this whole "there's no such thing as incorrect grammar" malarkey. Whilst it may be technically correct, it is only to the same extent that for example, there is no such thing as bad manners - only different cultural norms. I certainly wouldn't put up with my children chewing with their mouth open, spitting in the street, not saying please or thankyou etc etc although of course all of those things are considered fine in other parts of the world.

As far as language is concerned, I'm happy to accept regional dialect but I wouldn' put up with "I done" or dropped g's or non-pronunciation of 'th' etc

How could you marry someone who speaks like that? Didn't it come out on the first date? Either it didn't matter then and shouldn't now or it would be hugely off putting.

Xenia - are you really real?

Do you think I have grounds for divorce?

Sorry but I think you're being unreasonable.

My degree is in English Language and I think its heartbreaking that regional accents/dialects are disappearing.
I do think people should be able to write "correct English" (not that mine is so hot, English degree or not) but as for speaking it, I think regional accents and dialects should be encouraged.

It's not very easy to stop using dialect either, especially if you don't realise it's dialect until someone points it out to you.
I grew up in Yorkshire, (nowt wrong with your DHs phrasing IMHO ) so I would say something like "I'm working 9 while 5". When I moved to Lancashire to go to university people didn't understand this phrase because everyone else says "I'm working 9 until 5". I had to have this pointed out to me (actually the confused looks I kept getting made me realise people didn't understand me.) I still say it though, I'm just more aware of the confused looks now so repeat the "correct" version

I'd love it if my kids picked up a strong accent/dialect, but they're likely to end up with a confused one like I have. I'm from Sheffield, spent 9 years in Lancashire in an area where there's a strong Scouse influence, this is where the blokey hails from too. We now live east of Manchester in an area which has its own accent which is broader and slower than the Manchester accent.

I should point out, I am able to speak with an RP accent, but if anyone starts criticising my normal accent then I tend to start speaking very broadly.
Plus fact if thee's and thou's were good enough for Shakespeare then they're good enough for me

Mine is picking up Yorkshire accent quite well, unfortunately nor his father or I are in the best position to "correct" him as we are not native English speakers either. My mother is married to someone who was called la Real Academia de la Lengua Espanola. Hence, my sisters and I tend to cringe at the sound of any changes that appear to damage the grammar, spelling or purity of the language. I think having an above average command of my native language has helped me in so many ways and given me such an advantage that I feel frustrated at not being able to help my son better to achieve that, especially now that I'm able to feel the stigma and suffer the disadvantages that not speaking properly the language of the place brings.

Chandra, does Spanish have a regulatory body, then, like German or French?

Don't worry, your little boy will learn to speak the variant(s) of English that are most useful to him.

My point is either you have no problems with that kind of language - I do. I rejected one poor man because I just couldn't stand his strong Liverpool accent on the phone. My loss of course. Or else you hate it. But I can't see how if you marry someone like that and know how they speak it could start to irritate you later.

Given that you've mentioned the disconnect between your DH's academic accomplishments and how he sounds it does go along with the aspirational thing mentioned earlier. If he doesn't sound like he speaks in correct grammar then people won't realise he's as intelligent and accomplished as he is, reflecting upon him and the whole family.

I'm a linguistics studying Yorkshire lass so I'm coming strongly from the point of view that variety in spoken language is a wonderful thing, that these remnants from different varieties of old English should be retained and not wholly swallowed by the variety that became dominant as standard English. I think that new language usage that crops up adds to the richness and creativity of the language.

Also, as mentioned by the previous English lang person, people use different forms of language in different situations. In one study a child who was pressured at home to use standard grammer spoke that way almost 100% at home, but in the playground this dropped massively to about 60%. Also, male use of dialect often grew stronger to assert themselves when away from the same users of that dialect, whereas women would adapt to fit in.

Anyway, if Yorkshire had become the seat of power in this country and compilers of dictionaries and those who decide what is grammatical or literary had come from Yorkshire then that would be the standard and you'd all be complaining about people who said the instead of t' ;)

I am avoiding writing an essay at the moment, if I could just put as much effort into that!

My sister corrects her DHs speech in public. I have found it awful when she does that ... shows no respect. He is a lovely man and his speech is part of him. I think if you love someone you should accept that sort of thing. If you can't accept it you can't love them that much.

I kind of agree with xenia. If you love someone, shouldn't it be 'warts and all' and all that? I went out with someone for 3 years. I really loved him but in the end his table manners and smelly feet put an end to my love for him - I couldn't picture myself sitting opposite him at a dinner table for the next 50 years

I agree that people adapt too. My sister much to our amusement used to put on a ridiculous Geordie accent we had never ever had to talk to a boyfriend and then revert to how she normally spoke - she was putting him at his ease.

My teenagers when in their worst middle teen years had one language when talking to other incoherents of their age peppered with "like" etc but retained their ability to speak (in my terms) properly and then at university amusingly seem to speak better. They also when under 5 used to say "you was" as their nanny did which irritated me at the time but this was nearly 20 years ago and as soon as they went to a school where people spoke "better" they then stopped that.

I suppose the key thing is that people are however wrongly judging others on their voice, whether it is - that's a really sexy girl with a goregous French accent or that man's as thick as a plank because he says XYZ or he went to my kind of school so let's get him on the board or whatever and you can play that game or you can keep out of it. Anyone can change their accent and grammar. It's not hard.

NotQuiteCockney, there is one of course, since the early 1700s, although their aims have changed with the times. Initially its purpose was to protect the correct use, elegance and purity of the language, but now, with such a great number of Spanish speakers and thousands of regional dialects feeding into it, they are more concentrated in mainiting certain worldwide unity in how the language is used. My father was faithful to the earlier thought

Noooooooooooo!

My DH does not have a Yorkshire accent. He doesn't have an accent at all tbh.

Forget I ever mentioned Yorkshire.
Forget the accent bit.

I can't believe that I am STILL being accused of being aspirational.

I was merely asking whether you thought his turn of phrase made any sense.

How did this thread turn into a debate about whethr or not I had married the right man

OK, I have just read the thread title and maybe it sound aspirational.

Anyone who knows me however would piss themselves laughing on the spot.

I am the most laid back, unfashionable, scruffy person you could meet and can't remember ever aspiring to anything in my laugh (you have to believe me on this)

It's just that when he starts a sentence 'Did we ought to.....' I laugh my head off. It sounds so funny to me.

Obviously I am in the minority though!

But you said it was appalling not funny!

Hmmm. First of all, it's not possible to 'not have an accent'. Everyone has an accent! Presumably you mean he has a fairly neutral RP-ish sort of accent?

Second of all, 'aspirational' isn't a rude thing. I talk a good game about being neutral about dialects, and I do my best to not correct my children in their usage (even when DS1 uses "ain't"), but I certainly haven't been unhappy to note that since my DS1 changed schools, he's started pronouncing his ts again, rather than using glottal stops.

Thirdly, I probably would guffaw at DH if he used an expression like the one you describe. I certainly haven't been polite when his grammar has suffered from aspirational overcorrection ('They gave it to he and I').

Yes I would agree that aspirational is not an insult!

Anyway, Standard English is a written language not a spoken one. "Bad" grammar can often come from dialects that began as a seperate language from the variety of English we currently speak.

I suppose I should answer the original thing. Yes you're being unreasonable because I assume after publishing a book your husband does actually "know better" and uses standard grammar when writing.

And I mentioned Yorkshire to explain my personal slant on things as I obviously speak in a non-Standard English way.

But it's all summat and nowt really is't it

isn't

"I disagree that there 'is no such thing as incorrect grammar' - try arguing that with an exam marker,"

An exam marker would quite rightly be looking for grammar that was appropriate for the intended audience. In the case of most exams, this would be as is generally used in formal situations today. Conventional formal English, circa 2007.

In the majority of cases, most educated people will agree as to whether or not a sentence is formed according to these criteria. However if they disagree things get messy because contrary to popular belief there is no single source defining correct spelling or grammar.

Dictionaries and textbooks do not determine how the language is used. The reverse is true. They define according to observation and analysis of how the language is used.

This is commonly misunderstood. Hence the annual cries of disbelief when the latest editions of dictionaries come out containing modern youth slang. Some people think that by including these detested words the dictionaries are endorsing their use. Some think the dictionaries should act as an anchor to the language, preventing its change by way of improvisation from those who use it.

I love the language. I enjoy learning to communicate effectively by learning and applying the conventions. I like watching it change. And I like mucking around with it myself. Yabu if you want to stop me.

In languages with central governing bodies (French, German), dictionaries are more prescriptive and less descriptive. The fluidity of English is one of its great strengths, and (imo) is a big reason why English is so popular as a lingua franca.

Not so NQC, there are plenty of regionalisms added to the dictionary every year and some of them not exactly polite. The main arguments I have seen are related grammar use.

Regarding "not having an accent at all"... I don't think there are neutral accents per se, if somebody doesn't seem to have an accent at all it is because that person has exactly the same accent as you