WIBU to move to Ireland to give birth

[DahlTheGalah]

So that my baby would be an Irish and therefore EU citizen?

It seems farfetched to me, but I'm half serious. I am still so sad about Brexit, and being pregnant is bringing it home more as I've had the most wonderful and enriching experiences studying, living and working in Europe and am sad my baby may well not have those opportunities in the same way.

Currently, babies born on the island of Ireland to British Nationals get Irish (and therefore EU) citizenship. I am not Irish, but British currently living in Britain, and would be just making use of this law.

Has anyone else thought of doing this for the same reasons, or actually gone ahead?

How U am I being?

[senzaparole03]

Bumble.

Senza, abortion is allowed in Ireland to save the woman’s life. The woman’s life takes priority even though they do offer protection to the life of the unborn (making abortion for non life-threatening reasons illegal)
Yeah, people say that, however if you speak to any obstetrician or surgeon, it is painfully clear that the guidance is not there. For years they have been saying to the medical council, and the government, that clear guidelines are required. There is significant grey scale in the current guidelines that make it nearly impossible for the physician to make a judgement call that they know will be legal. In addition to actually speaking to the medical professionals for their experiences on how it works in reality, I also read a significant portion of the submission to the citizen's assembly.

But no, there's no problem....

I find it really distasteful that Savita’s name constantly gets brought up in these discussions. You should read up on her case before you over simplify it the way you did. She was terribly neglected in hospital and died as a result.
She was. And key in that neglect was that she was specifically denied an abortion in order to save her life. I have not only read her case, I am actively involved in abortion rights. And I'm sorry you find it distasteful, but this is the reality. Though clearly many prefer we continue to brush things under the carpet.

[senzaparole03]

Innagazing I'm pretty certain that a few Irish women have had their babies (or abortions) on mainland Britain, so you could just view this circumstance as a quid pro quo arrangement.

You think Irish women travel to UK to give birth and return after the baby is born?
Or do you think it is more likely that Irish women travel to the UK, work, pay taxes, and also given birth in their country of residency?

For those who have had abortions, they pay for them.

[LivLemler]

Irish women who have abortions in GB pay for the pleasure. Including women from NI. They also have no other safe alternative.

There is no reason I can think of for an Irish woman to travel to GB to give birth. Irish women who give birth in GB presumably do so as they live there, or go into premature labour while travelling. Which is very different to what the OP is considering.

[senzaparole03]

There is no reason I can think of for an Irish woman to travel to GB to give birth.

Maybe back in the day when unmarried mothers were forced to travel for birth and give away their babies.

[LaurieMarlow]

I've read about the case extensively and it's clear to me she would not have died in another country because she would have been granted an immediate abortion as soon as the foetuses life was understood to be unviable.

I find it distasteful that certain factions of Irish society want to minimise the role of the Irish constitution in causing her death. She was explicitly told by a nurse that she couldn't have an abortion because Ireland is a catholic country. At this point she was begging for one. Despite this being a much wanted first baby for her. She knew her life was threatened.

[MargaretCavendish]

How pregnant are you now, OP? I can see why this seems like a logically good idea now, but I suspect the logistical downsides to giving birth a long way from where you actually live will start to loom. Where would you live? Is your plan to be heavily pregnant and living out of a hotel room?

[Roomba]

If I was pregnant now I'd actually consider it too, OP. I'd never actually do it as my ex wouldn't let me move the kids abroad and I couldn't afford to move, but I have said to him before (not entirely in jest) maybe we should all relocate to Ireland so we can be European citizens too!

I'd be very wary of the maternity system there though, as mothers' health is not the first priority.

[OkPedro]

bumblymummy
Do you hear a klaxon when abortion and Ireland are mentioned on MN?

[ivenoideawhatimdoing]

OP, I agree with you to some extent and am too still stinging from Brexit, however, this isn't the best idea.

You would uproot your entire network to move to a country where your unborn baby may/may not have additional rights that it may do in England?

I think that it's admirable to want to give your child the best life but if they want to work/study in Europe badly enough they will find a way. We don't even know we will be stripped entirely of this yet.

[WinnieFosterTether]

YABU it's incredibly selfish, no matter how you try to dress it up by relating it to how European you feel. You're putting additional pressure on their maternity services and personally, I think it's distasteful to pick and choose your child's nationality on some notions of personal gain.

[Waterdropsdown]

OP what is your actual plan? That you just pop up in NI to give birth? Or you move there prior? What about your job? Any current family? Seems like the most whacky thing I’ve heard (although I am aware people do this coming from poor countries to not so poor countries) if you already have a good life.

[LaurieMarlow]

It's worth pointing out that although the issue of maternal rights (or lack of them) is very scary, overall ROI has better outcomes for mother and baby than the UK. I know that the OP is talking about NI, but just as a point of information.

[bumbleymummy]

Senza, I don’t want to derail this thread with this discussion but she was not ‘denied an abortion to save her life’. Her life was not in danger when she requested the abortion. If you would like to continue this discussion please feel free to PM me. I am Irish and have read about her case in detail too.

[DahlTheGalah]

I have no plan, was just thinking about it as an idea.

I shall be staying in NI over the summer anyway and if I could get a job there and like it, would consider staying, yes.

The baby’s father is a danger to us and I am moving away from where he lives in any case and making a fresh start for me and baby. My family is scattered around, none in NI though.

Yes it is probably too selfish. Was trying to hoodwink myself into thinking it was no different to movie

[DahlTheGalah]

Sorry unfinished..

To moving to any other different part of the U.K. to give birth, which is what I’ll be doing anyway, as soon as I start Mat leave in Feb/March

[bumbleymummy]

Moving to NI would be no different to moving to another part of the UK really. If you’re planning to stay and start a life there then it may make sense to go sooner rather than later so that you can get settled, find somewhere to live and start getting some support networks in place.

[WhatchaMaCalllit]

Why do you have to have your baby in Ireland (either in NI or Republic)? Couldn't you have your baby in France or Germany using your EHIC (European Health Insurance Card)? It gives you public level health cover in any EU member state so you could find out which country offers newborn babies immediate nationality of that country and then go there instead. Or is it a language barrier type thing? You should and could learn enough French or German or maybe Spanish to get by and in the meantime, your newborn baby could be living it large on the continent and getting EU Citizenship.

I apologise now but posts like the one that the OP put up really irritate me.

[riledandharrassed]

Why not . Belfast is lovely .

If my partner wasn’t Irish (NI but got full passport due to Brexit) and my child will gain citizenship through paternity I would consider doing the same thing .

[badb]

The British citizen parent exemption is news to me. I actually went and read the statute book to check, and it's true. Wow. Adds a whole other dimension to the utter racism at the heart of the Citizenship Act of 2004. It would be DEEPLY ironic if 'birth tourism', which was the reason for the referendum in the first place, came back to bite the government in the ass.

Anyway, yes, as others have said, maternity services aren't brilliant here. Better in Dublin than in other places. If you are on the public system, scan at 12 weeks and 20 weeks, and that's it. No nuchal fold test, no prenatal testing unless you pay for it. It would be less hassle for you to go to NI, and would be more ethically sound.

Slight derail: Bumbleymummy - yes, under the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013. Which was finally instituted (20 years after Attorney General vs X, the case that established the right to an abortion if a woman's life was threatened) AFTER Savita died, as a result of public pressure. I have read the report on her case, by the way, and while one of the key causal factors was inadequate monitoring and assessment, the report clearly comments on jurisdictional issues which impacted on the direction of treatment chosen by medical staff (i.e., they did not follow best clinical practice for inevitable miscarriage because it would have put them in contradiction with the law here at the time, as the foetus would not survive the treatment). They missed the deterioration, yes absolutely. However, the report specifically urges that the law needed to be addressed in order to allow the appropriate treatment. Her case is extremely important in the history laws around maternity practice in Ireland, and that is why it is brought up a lot.

[WinnieFosterTether]

Dahl I know I said you were being selfish because you presented it as though you were being a health tourist but if you're considering moving to NI then I've changed my opinion - you're not being selfish. From your latest post, it sounds as though you're in a time of transition and are weighing up lots of different options.

[senzaparole03]

I shall be staying in NI over the summer anyway and if I could get a job there and like it, would consider staying, yes.

Well I think this changes the perspective somewhat. In the OP you gave the impression of travelling in your 38th week or something to give birth!

But if you're looking to relocate in the UK, and spending a few months in NI anyway, then it is a much more realistic and less dodgy option that it seemed initially!

[HermioneAndTheSniffle]

Sorry OP that your circumstances are so hard atm.

I REALLY dont think that ide is selfish in any shape or form.
Remember that most posters started thinking you wanted to go to RoI not NI.

If you need to get away form an abusive ex, then maybe this is the right thing for you to do anyway, regardless of the birth and the citizenship.
Also, we all make decisions that can be seen as selfish. Pretty normal when you want to protect your own health/rights etc... and pretty normal not to put everyone else before you all the time.

Seriously, I dint think there is any issue with you going to NI to give birth. Just as you could have gone to any other part of the country for various reasons. Get away from an abusive ex, being closer to family, where work takes you, etc etc the reasons are e dress and just as good as the ones you can have about staying where you live to give birth.

One big difference is that very few people have ever considered doing that and therefore will dismiss the idea automatically. And will find fault to it. It dies t mean you’re wrong or that it’s selfish or stupid. Just that it would be an unusual decision. But if it’s the right one FOR YOU, then I would go for it.

[DahlTheGalah]

I do speak French, German and a bit of Spanish, and have lived in two of those countries, but felt NI could be a fresh start while not so far from my closer family as France, Germany or Spain would be.

And for the citizenship issue, those countries go by jus sanguinis.

I hadn’t really meant this thread to be so much about my own silly situation though as about the concept in general.

[LittleDittyAbout]

OP I live in Ireland and had an abortion (20 years ago) via the NHS, by rather dubious means. If you can come here and have your baby, between us we'll even the score. :-)

[HermioneAndTheSniffle]

what sorry but as far as I know you can NOT use your EHIC card to go and give birth in the EU.
To do so, you first need to let the NHS know and you need a good reason to do so (eg being French and wanting to give birth in France).
Otherwise, the answer is will be a simple NO. (Or you will have to pay)

Furthermore, not all countries will give the citizenship to a child just because they are born in that country. The U.K. certainly doesn’t for example.

And you would add the issue do not speaking the language etc...

So no, it wouldnt be the same to go to France. And no it would t be possible.