Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To expect midwives to be able to tell an arse from a head?

53 replies

RedFraggle · 19/04/2007 14:21

I am 32 weeks pregnant with second baby, went into hospital on Sunday due to lots of pain and midwife put in my notes that baby was head down. She didn't say anything to me at the time or I would have queried this.
Saw another midwife yesterday for general checkup and she agreed with me that baby is definitely breech. I can feel it's head at the top of my uterus and it feels exactly the same as when I had my daughter.
I had exactly this situation with my first baby, kept being told she was definitely head down and then when I insisted on a scan she was found to be breech.

So... am I being unreasonable to expect midwives who have had years of training and experience to be able to spot the difference between a head and an arse!!!

OP posts:
Original poster
RedFraggle · 19/04/2007 16:49

I think I just struggle to understand why they even bother making these pronouncements when IME they are so often wrong. I was repeatedly told by many different midwives that dd was head down and x amount engaged. Even when I explained why I wanted it to be double checked (my friends surprise breech) the midwife told me she was 98% sure the baby was head down and was a bit surprised when I insisted on a scan!
RGee that sounds like a nightmare! Hope all turned out ok in the end...

OP posts:
megandsoph · 19/04/2007 17:03

I had a growth scan on Tuesday and LO was head down, yesterday I had my normal AN appointment and was told LO was breech, I told MW that the scan said she was head down and MW said "oh the baby must have a boney bum" So its really common.

DaisyMOO · 19/04/2007 18:30

And of course babies can and do turn even very late on - so the midwife/doctor could have been completely right and the baby just moved to be awkwatd

And breech babies don't have to be born by c-section. The big research trial that concluded c-section was safer was later found to be very badly flawed and I believe a number of the authors have since said that its conclusions should be withdrawn.

Original poster
RedFraggle · 19/04/2007 19:52

Perhaps sometimes Daisymoo, but with dd I went the very next day for the scan and she was breech. Bearing in mind the difficulty they had turning her (also the same day) I think I would have noticed if she had turned by herself in the space of that 24 hours!

I'm not having a section as this one is breech but because of the totally sh*t time I had with dd delivery.

OP posts:
DaisyMOO · 19/04/2007 21:33

Didn't mean you RedFraggle, just meant generally I can totally understand why you're having an elective c-section this time - I did with my second and third babies after having a very traumatic first birth.

MuminBrum · 19/04/2007 21:39

I heard a great story from a mum of my acquaintance whose second LO was, according to the MWs and obs&gobs, going to be absolutely immense. We're talking 15lbs with teeth and tattoos. When she went into hospital for what she hoped was going to be a natural birth, despite all the gloomy prognoses, all available staff were scrambled - apparently there were student MWs, student medics, several senior obs types, not to mention cleaners and porters etc etc all milling around expectantly waiting to see the giant freak baby emerge. And guess what? Out popped a neat little 7 1/2 pounder. She said the audience just melted away!

ellieandhattie · 19/04/2007 21:40

dd1 was flex breech but midwife wrote in notes that she was engaged only by chance I had scan at 37 weeks for anoter reason was it discovered went for ECV didnt work so planned section at 39+4. DD2 was head down however had elective section booked which turned out to be a good idea as she had turned to transverse and was only discovered when in theatre so would have ended up with emergency section anyway

Spidermama · 19/04/2007 21:47

My fantastic mws told me it can be quite difficult.

Pamelap · 21/09/2007 11:49

I think I was lucky because the midwife had a suspicion that baby was breech and she booked me in for a scan at 37wks. In the meantime I saw a Dr who was convinced he was head down - but she was obviously wrong.

I then went for ECV - but was really surprised by how little the mw could tell us about ECV when we went. None of the drs I've spoken to since have seen ECV or really knew how it was done!

I was lucky that it was successful (on the 3rd attempt with drugs to relax uterous), but incredibly painful and ended up bruised for about a week afterwards.
There seems to be very little about ECV on the net even.

NoNameToday · 21/09/2007 12:25

Sorry RedFraggle, but yes you are being unreasonable to expect that each and every midwife and/or doctor will diagnose a brech presentation on abdominal palpation with 100% accuracy every time.

There are certain pointers which may or may not point to a breech presentation, first pregnancies where mums have particularly strong muscles can make the this difficult, as can a multiparous patient with a large amount of amniotic fluid.

As someone else has pointed out, babies do change position also!

With a vaginal examination, then I would expect a greater degree of accuracy, but that can depend upon the experience of the person carrying out the examination.

Yes, you may feel 'the head' at the top of your uterus, but you may be wrong.

The appropriate care which ensues in the latter stages of pregnancy and in labour once a breech presentation is correctly diagnosed and confirmed confirmed is surely more important.

vbacqueen1 · 21/09/2007 12:27

For anyone whose baby is breech and would prefer a natural delivery rather than a CS - did you know that you can have something called moxabustion (alternativenewagetypetherapy!) which sports around a 70% success rate at turning babies from breech to head down?

My 3rd baby was breech from the start and I had an elective CS. My 4th baby was also breech all the way through but as I was desperate for a VBAC I would have tried anything to get her to turn - at 37 weeks I went along to the Chinese herbalist/acupuncturist and had a combination of acupuncure and moxabustion (they burn a little thing that looks a bit like a hollow cigar and hold it next to your little toe nail) - I didn't believe for a second it would work. It did. Gobsmacked.

Theclosetpagan · 21/09/2007 12:33

As an ex-midwife I have to say that sometimes it isn't obvious if a baby is breech. All the reseacrh into undiagnosed breech deliveries shows that they are usually missed by everyone.

Also at 32 weeks your baby is still quite capable of flipping over in 24 hours so he/she might indeed have been head down yeaterday and breech today.

Just as an aside I saw a woman who I met for the first time when she went into labour. I confidently palpated her baby as head down but when I did an internal it was definitely a bottom I was feeling. Yet even knowing this when I palpated again I would still have said that he was head down from what I could feel. Not an exact science palpation.

alicet · 21/09/2007 13:06

It is difficult to tell. The number of undiagnosed breeches should tell you that.

Just because you can tell yourself doesn't mean it is easy - your bump might just be easier to feel or else the fact that it feels the same as your last would obviously make you think this one is breech too.

harpsichordcarrier · 21/09/2007 13:09

I too had an undiagnosed breech. it is very difficult to tell. even when my notes said "breech" several mw's said are you sure and I replied well I saw the scan and either the baby is breech or she has eyes in her arse

NoNameToday · 21/09/2007 13:19

I was so eager to jump in that I didn't notice the original post was April 2007....

If you are still around RedFraggle, it would be interesting to not the end result was.

becklespeckle · 21/09/2007 13:19

LOL @ Harpsicord!

RGee - your story makes me worried as I am due between Christmas and New Year - have been fretting about possible lack of staff! Am currently 26 weeks and I think baby is feet down (or transverse, lying on stomach as it was at last scan) as about 85% of the time most of the movement I feel is below my knicker-line and much of that feels as though it is directly into my cervix! We do get a flip-round and some upwards kicking at around 10 in the evening but the rest is all low (whether I am sitting, standing or lying down). Hoping baby is not too comfy that way and will decide head down is best once there is a little less room to move in there!

becklespeckle · 21/09/2007 13:20

I didn't notice either...

lulumama · 21/09/2007 13:22

AFAIK, redfraggle had an elective c.s ,but cannot remember if it was because the baby remained breech or as she had had a previous em. c.s.

NoNameToday · 21/09/2007 13:33

Hi lulamama,
sorry, haven't signed up for cat, but happy for you to email me [email protected] if that's ok with you?

NoNameToday · 21/09/2007 13:37

sorry lulumama, so rude of me, mispelling your name.
Really will sort the smileys!!

lulumama · 21/09/2007 13:38

no worries !

thanks

StripeyKnickersSpottySocks · 21/09/2007 17:38

Becklesparkle - don't worry about htere been less staff between xmas and new year. We have the same number of midwives on each shift whether its xmas day or not.

I saw a woman in early labour yesterday with an undiagnosed footling breech, she certainly palpated like baby was cephalic but feet were felt on VE!

Most of the time its very easy to feel if baby is breech or not. But sometimes whether its because of the way that baby's lieing or maternal habitus or strong abdo muscles it can be difficult. There was once a woman with a very high BMI on the ward and to be honest you couldn't tell that there was a baby in there never mind which way up it was.

Original poster
RedFraggle · 22/09/2007 10:08

Hello - surprised to see this old post!

I did have an elective section due to previous emergency section. It was quite funny as when I was about 37 weeks I had to go into hospital as I kept almost fainting and while I was there three midwives had a heated debate about the presentation of my baby. Two said breech and one said head down. They got me scanned and he was head down. It did make me think of this question again...

Nonametoday - the reason I asked about all the frequent errors over positioning is due to the situation with my first baby - breech presentation was only discovered after I insisted on a scan. It wasn't just one or two midwives getting it wrong - it was EVERY midwife I saw in the later stages of pregnancy, and there was a different one practically every visit. As I said in one of my earlier posts, what is the point of making these pronouncements when there is such an absurd error ratio (in my own experience) Just book people in for a quick scan at 37/38 weeks. As I pointed out though I wasn't that bothered if they right or wrong this time around as I knew I was having a section, but they all still told me the position anyway (and some still clearly got it wrong)

OP posts:
dalmatianbabe · 22/09/2007 14:56

My midwife didn't realise my ds was breech until his bum appeared.

It was too late for a c-section. So I huffed and I puffed and I delivered that critter. To an audience of about 15 people who had come in 'cos this type of thing doesn't happen very often'.

I should have charged admission!!

dejags · 22/09/2007 15:32

My DD was breech from 28 weeks onward (confirmed by scan and palpation).

When I went into labour at 36 weeks nobody could tell by palpation if she was head down (including 3 midwives and 2 obstetricians).

Only when I was 6cms dilated and they could have a good feel did they decide she was definitely head down.

So not always that easy to tell IMO.