To have decided secondary school uniform actually looks ridiculous (most of the time!)

[youarenotkiddingme]

Dropped ds at school this morning and for some unknown reason traffic towards my work was heavy and crawling.

As I was sat in car I saw primary kids and secondary kids and employees all off on their day.

It struck me how the primary kids looked comfortable in skirts and trousers, warm tights and jumpers. The employees has work clothes that looked smart but were bought to suit shape and size and were practical.

The secondary kids are in thin tights (not allowed the super soft thick ones), all girls in same style skirt regardless of shape, size and height and girls just looked ‘odd’ in the ties. The blazers looked a good style on some pupils but others just looked like they were wearing something designed for someone else!

It struck me that despite me agreeing with uniform and the community feel of all wearing a uniform - logo and belonging etc but the reality is 1200 individual children all show horned into a one size fits all style.

I had to visit bank after work where all the staff wore ‘same’ uniform and logo but there were a variety of styles which were chosen by staff to suit their comfort, style and shape.

So AIBU to think that this idea that shirt, tie and blazer and 1 style skirt or trousers actually looks more odd than smart?

The HT believes that smart uniform equals better behaviour. However DS is being bullied (possibly by boys in smart uniform?). I wish they would spend less time fretting over top buttons and more on the important stuff.

We're having to send DS in a very thin coat as nowhere to put a big bulky coat (has to carry round).

I'd genuinely like to know where the idea that behaviour and uniform are linked. Is there a piece of research on this? At school I had a bit of a hard time from the sharpest dressers in school. My best friend was a lovely girl with holes in her jumper probably!

I like the pp's point that schools in other countries manage just fine without uniform and do they have any more/less of issues with bullying and poor behaviour?

Every time there is a dress down day at school my 15 year old DS spends hours agonising about what to wear to.look "right". I cannot imagine the stress (and expense) every day. School.uniform all the way for me !

My school didn’t and still doesn’t have school uniform and we all looked a complete mess.

It was very apparent who the poor children were and kids can be pretty mean if you didn’t have the right leather jacket, Levi’s, etc (it was the bros years)! Also, think boys in football colours, all perfectly acceptable.

Also it is nonsense to suggest that we dressed appropriately for our shape or indeed the weather. We wore what was in fashion regardless of whether it suited us or would freeze.

And yes, parents should police this but really they didn’t stand a chance as if your parents were a bit more on the strict side, like mine, you would change at school.

School uniforms, whilst not great are a leveller in many regards and whilst not brilliant, better than the alternative.

I hate uniforms - really hate them. Sense of community and cohesion is bollocks they are used to deny individuality and make people more compliant and conform. That's why they use them in the army and prisons.

If they really worked though then why do very few advanced countries have school uniform. Virtually no other western country bar a few ex british colonies have them. If they manage to maintain order and in many cases out perform ours in education why do we need them.Maybe their teachers and parents are Just simply better than ours????

Exactly. When abroad I don't see young people turning up for work in bikinis and pyjamas. Somehow they manage to understand dress codes without having adults measure their skirts in their mid teens.

Uniform and enforcing embarrassingly petty, ridiculous rules, especially in secondary school, is a tragic waste of time. I wish energy was focused (by parents, children and schools) on something that actually helps people.

So far as I am aware there is no actual evidence linking behaviour and academic performance with uniform. It is all anecdata largely based on experience of non-uniform days rather than extended periods of non-uniform.

The recent switch to blazer uniforms comes from the turnaround of some failing schools several years ago. In these schools new heads came in made many changes but the one which makes the long term media is the uniform change.

Now every new head remembers this. Its the obvious symbol of regime change. Poor heads focus on uniform as a kind of displacement activity rather than dealing with the real problems in failing schools.

Independent schools have uniform easy. They can be as strict as they like because that is part of what parents sign up to. They can have a single supplier and enforce it.

State schools are trying to ape this but their community cant afford this. So we end up with ill-fitting cheaply produced polyester uniforms which work for very few.

I am not against uniforms. My DCs were both cadets and happily and proudly wore their uniforms. Their school wasnt one to be proud of so why should they take pride in their uniforms?

School uniforms, whilst not great are a leveller in many regards and whilst not brilliant, better than the alternative

I don't buy the leveller argument at all.

Even at primary and with being able to purchase from supermarkets, between bags and shoes and pe kits it still costs me hundreds to sort out both Dds

I could get a lot of clothes for the money and use voucher codes and sales and birthday/Xmas presents and hand me downs to keep costs as low as possible.

Not having to buy two lots of trainers as one set is kept in school, and not having to buy school shoes would save me 1-200 quid right there.

Plus with the poor quality of school uniform don't tell me you can't tell who's in their big brothers old oversized unifirm or who's still wearing the old stuff that's to small as no one can afford to replace.

It's the bullying that needs sorting you can't hide that with clothes

Besides clothes wouldn't be such a big deal when worn every day. It isn't anywhere ekse that doesn't have uniforms.

My experience of non-profits was that it was a non-update. My DCs wore what they wanted for school. Pretty much jeans and t-shirt.

It was good for my DS who really didn't like school as it was one less thing to put up a barrier. He could wear his favourite dinosaur t-shirt and somehow school wasn't quite so bad.

Especially as they insist on logod book bags.

The initial cost is cheaper than one of the "in fashion" back packs.
But

The book bag doesn't even last the year I've had to buy three already and still the one she has is holey

A twenty quid animal back pack I bought 12 years ago is still going strong.

As are all the animal back packs I've bought dd1 which are used for other things now

It's cost me far more to keep up with the uniform than being able to choose what to take would.

Auto correct!

non-uniform was a non-issue

My daughters secondry school uniform is lovely . Tartan skirt with blue shirt and blue blazer and then thin black tights. It looks lovely on her and is very smart . She is tall and very thin though and looks good in anything. I like schools having uniforms and i dread non uniform days as it's such a hassle!

I have never understood why schools don't do like a swap shop for uniforms ? It would help families out so much who struggle to buy new blazers etc

That only works though if the uniform is decent quality.

Our primary does a pre loved sale.

I used it a fair bit to start

However when I went to the last one to try and replace dd1s jumpers I was shocked at the absolute state of them. They all looked terrible a real noticible decline in quality durability etc so much so they looked worse than the ones she had so I didn't bother

I heard others say the same. Stuff that previously lasted for multiple kids now looking a state.

Cheap polyester blazers do not wash and wear well either so it's not always possible to sell on

Also it's not helpful when unifirm gets changed it when you are first starting and unaware of the sales you still have to kit them out.

Wow talk about first world problems.

Uniform is designed to make children fit in, feel part of the collective and give them one less thing to worry about during the day. They aren't in school to be individuals, they are in school to learn. I think that gets forgotten by some children and their parents. If you hate it that much then get them changed as soon as they return home every day.

At my daughters school they are pretty strict about uniform. I think the kids look smart but to be honest, it wouldn't bother me if they were dressed in bin bags every day, as long as they were all the same. It's noticeable that the parents who kick up a stink every year about perceived injustices in the uniform policy (why can't my DD have her hair dyed red etc etc) are always the ones whose kids are little shits and actually, what uniform they wear should be the least of their worries!

We had uniform (polos and jumpers) at middle school and the our own clothes at upper school. What you wore was so much more of an issue at middle schools. Everyone was obsessed with shoes and bags and non uniform days were fraught.

By day three of upper school we had all settles down and just wore jeans and t shirts for the vast majority of the year. It was such a non issue and so much easier.

The upper school was the only one for miles and had 2000+ kids from all backgrounds in y10-11 so it was a total mix across all backgrounds as well.

Highlight775, I kick up a stink every year.

I did object to my 15 year old DD3 being measured in front of her form and her vital statistics discussed in front of the other children.

My DD is not a little shit who pushes the boundaries. She was also appointed head prefect of her school this year, an appointment which is made by the headteacher and her head of year.

DD's uniform was OK. This was my only complaint in 5 years and even the headmaster agreed that it was justified because the public measuring had been started by two admin staff who had not been told to do any such thing and had just taken it into their heads to do it.

I wouldn't want to be publicly measured in front of a school class and my measurements discussed in front of them and I am in my fifties.

That should have read I DON'T kick up a stink every year.

Far too much going on around me all at once here!!

Topseyt

So you're not one of the people I'm talking about then.

I didn't say people couldn't have justified grievances, I'm saying it's the ones who complain year in year out about nonsense and think that the entire concept of uniform is desperately unfair are usually the ones who could benefit from concentrating on other areas of their children's education.

I really liked having a school uniform (especially at secondary school) but it wasn't very complicated: white collared shirt, tie, jumper with logo, black skirt or trousers, black shoes. Within that there was quite a lot of room for people to get what they liked and what suited them, and I think there wasn't too much pushing against the boundaries because of that. Of course we didn't look smart all the time, but we could smarten up pretty quickly if we needed to.

I hated the stress of non uniform days - I was not cool, but I didn't stand out too much on a regular day. Girls would talk about what they were going to wear starting weeks in advance, and I was always found wanting.

School uniform was easy to buy (only tie and jumper were specific to the school), easy to wash, easy to wear in the different seasons, and we all learned how to tie a tie...

Actually, this has brought back a lot of memories from my teenage years and school!

I think a lot of people forget how stressful the teen years can be and the desperation to fit in. If your in uniform, you all look a bit shite and frumpy.

I used to go on a shopping trip to the big city with my Mum before the start of term and it was really stressful as you didn’t want to get it wrong as that would be social suicide - the “look “ or worse, the, “that’s an interesting choice.”

Whilst kids will notice hand down jumpers with holes, it is much much more noticeable having the wrong brand of jeans, tops, etc. So yes I stand by the comment that uniform is a great leveller as I’ve seen and lived with the alternative and if you got it wrong it could be quite unpleasant.

OK, Highlight. Wasn't sure from your post.

I agree with you to a point, but I have questioned it more recently, especially since having this shit flung at me, and the ridiculous school admin assistant telling the children she publicly measured that if they didn't like this then THEY could go and find another school. Parents were not notified, girls leg lengths were measured in front of classes.

I guess I am still angry now that it happened. It proved to me that there are staff in some of these schools who will take this all way too literally and without applying caution or common sense.

It transpired that even many of the teaching staff had been taken aback at what happened and had also drawn the headmaster's attention to it.

I agree with you op, and I also agree with having a uniform.

At my DCs school the girls can wear trousers and thick tights but most tend to go for thin tights.

I really dislike blazers and why do the girls need to wear ties, really don't see the need to make the kids look like mini business men.

If I was to choose the uniform I would go for a polo shirt, jumper (when cold) then obviously trousers/skirts (trousers for boys & girls) I would also allow shorts to be worn by both sexes in the summer, rather then the boys being too hot and the girls going bare legged with short skirts.

I like school uniform - I just think they have become impractical.

The school I went to we wore open neck blouses and v neck jumper, boys wore shirt and tie and v neck jumper. It was the best in area every year.
Now it’s an extremely strict school with regards uniform rules and has no leeway (punished all the way for infringement).
It’s now 5/6 in league tables instead of first.

For me it’s about putting the priorities in order - and when image is placed above teaching and learning it’ll have an impact.

Incidentally there is also an extremely high level of bullying between girls at the same school - mostly because bags and hair have become something they are competitive about - probably because it’s the only way the can retain any sort of individuality.