To think that hard work alone does not make you wealthy

[ooohbetty]

I like watching Rich House Poor House and it has got me thinking, a lot of people work hard, hold down jobs, juggle childcare or caring for other relatives, some work long hours and can get help with child care, others don't have childcare but work hard when they can around school hours etc.
Both sets of families in the programme so far seemed to work hard and do their best but are still on the opposite ends of being rich and poor. So if someone says I'm here today with all this wealth because I work hard I think well from where I'm watching the other family seem to be working hard too, I do wonder, if a lot of folk work hard, surely the extra wealth has to come down to the actually vocations they have and possible other sets of circumstances that they have had presented to themselves at the right time in their lives where they can take these opportunities up.
There must be other factors to getting wealthy or am I being daft?

[ThatWasNotLove]

If wealth was the result of hard work, parents with young children would be wealthy. Parents with young children who have learning disorders or health problems would be rolling in it.

[AndhowcouldIeverrefuse]

It saddens me that people look at those who have done well for themselves and just think "daddy's money" etc...when you have no idea the craft that has most likely gone into that person's business.

Perhaps we are thinking about different things? I am thinking about many people I know who come from wealthy backgrounds and don't really need to work. They have been privately educated, look and sound the part, have good contacts and have had their natural intelligence maximised by education and opportunities.

These people are materially secure - they, and their partners and families, have one or two houses, income from capital, could easily go into well-paid jobs if they wanted to - so they can afford to take financial risks. They can afford to work on an business that doesn't pay for 2 or 3 years, then breaks even, then takes off 10 years later. Then they sell it for a mint because it's gone too big and they don't like the hassle. Things will never go financially seriously wrong for them. Can you not see how important that safety net is?

Because of their education and contacts they can be really forward-looking and create the sort of businesses and companies that will change we do things.

I was thinking about people like that, not about someone who made money working all hours of the day building something like your local second hand car dealership, with all due respects.

[xhannahx]

@andhowcouldleverrefuse I'm not denying that some people gain wealth with the financial backing of others, I'm saying it's wrong to assume that's the case.

Most directors I know have started from nothing and paid themselves a pittance for years whilst waiting for the business to take off. For many years our employees earned FAR more than we did.

This is the side of a business that those how have never run one don't see. That director that now does nothing, sacrificed EVERYTHING for YEARS to earn that privilege. He/she probably risked their house, their health, their marriage, time with their children, their everything to get there.

Even huge corporations once upon a Time were just an idea.

It's this mentality that blocks others from believing they can succeed.

If you want to start a business from scratch, you have to be prepared to risk everything..and then have people look at you like it was handed on a plate.

[Sienna333]

I know someone who earns at least 60K and has a very light work schedule. Only goes into the office for 2 long days then is able to finish early on the other days and pick up her DC's from school. Yes she has to work from home but it is flexible and she has freetime. Then there are people I know who work in childcare/caring industries who work long hours everyday with no early finishes or work from home scenarios and they earn a pittance but work just as hard if not harder than the person earning a very high wage. Hard work plays a part but a lot of it is career choices, luck and what youeare born into/marry into.

[spidey66]

My dad had a shit childhood, was only semi literate because of poor educational opportunities, but learnt the trade as a builder and through a strong work ethic was able to retire by about 50.

Those kind of people ae far and few between though.

[Cornishclio]

I watched rich house poor house yesterday and found it interesting that the rich woman was born on the same estate as the poor one. The difference was first the poor woman admitted she did not work hard on getting an education, something she freely admitted she regrets now. That meant she was destined for low paying hard labour jobs like cleaning. Also I don't think you should underestimate the fact that the rich woman obviously also had a wealthy husband so presumably 2 incomes coming in although I did not catch the beginning where it said what they both did for a living. The poor woman was a single parent with 3 young kids so providing for them on a cleaners wage would not be easy. If you are poor you are often penalised by not having access to cheap credit or paying more for gas/electric by having prepaid meters. I don't think hard work alone will make you wealthy. It involves a certain level of education, opportunities to make contacts and a certain amount of being in the right place at the right time.

[PoppyPopcorn]

I don't watch this programme usually but saw it last night. The "rich" husband was from a very similar background to his wife, council estate, state educated. I think during the bit where the "poor" mum went out with the other woman's friends they said he'd worked away a lot. He certainly wasn't born into money.

[Want2bSupermum]

xhannahx I've had people on here tell me that DH being as successful as he is, is all due to luck and privilege. He is the son of a janitor and a carer. He left school at 16 with barely any qualifications and did a year conscription in the armed forces, starting work at 17. He had no degree and parents that wouldn't know how to help him even if they could. His first job was part of the job activation program, which saw him working in a factory and because of his age they put him in the office. He realized pretty quickly he needed to get a job that could pay well and to do so he needed to get qualified. He applied for 15 apprenticeships and was accepted to two. He picked his current employer because the other was a supermarket and he didn't want to work weekends.

Today he was worked his way up, gone back to complete an MBA and runs his own business while working FT. People however both in Denmark and the Uk are very quick to dismiss is success as being down to privilege, luck or taking advantage of others. What they forget is that he was the guy studying while we had 2DC. Traveling all the time and pushing the sales of items the company previously paid others to take away.

Luck and privilege have had little to do with his success. He has had more doors shut in his face than he will ever admit to. He is paid well by his employer because he sued them. I put the money up for this but we would have gone bankrupt if we had lost.

[Ruthlessrooster]

You need a level of intelligence that’s probably smarter than the average bear, coupled with grit, the correct personality type and useful, financially lucrative skills. But you don’t need to be super smart. Being right at the top of the the IQ scale isn’t correlated with higher success in life

I didn't say that one needed to be at the top of the IQ scale. Merely that by being in the top 15% (IQ of about 116 upwards) then one is functionally qualified to enter those professions that pay the most (medicine, law, technology, finance). Then you add on to that a tolerance to stress and a degree of conscientiousness and that's the recipe for success in the job market. Those qualities without IQ are unlikely to bring financial reward. And those types who make millions through entrepreneurial initiative despite having 1 GCSE in fridge maintenance or such like almost certainly have a high IQ.

One doesn't even have to compare the top percentiles to the bottom 15%. The bottom 30-40% will easily suffer in comparison too. The fact is that most people just don't have the capability to make money when other cleverer people with the same work ethic are competing for the same limited resource.

[loopdeeloo]

I did so shit at school it was incredible. Took me until I was 22 until I realised I didn't want a minimum wage job for the rest of my life (cold calling old people to lie down the phone: ahh the shame) and I went to night school. Qualified in a profession late as thank god I looked young enough for a junior placement, trained for years and ended paid high tax rate job and had two assistants in my last job and even got a £12k pay rise when I asked for one in another job. If I hadn't realised I could do it I imagine my life might be a lot more shitty. But I don't know. Something just clicked and I got pissed off with staying in all the time because I had no money and oh god buses. I hope I never get another bus as long as I live!!! They are the most inefficient way of travel. Hours waiting in the cold. I remember one job when I was training in my current profession, standing in the snow 1.5 hours from home when the bus pulled up and said they're full. It was another hour to the next bus and I wasn't sure if I'd get on the next one so I begged the driver to let me stand on the stairs. Some people might have packed it in at 22. I was earning £13k a year in my first junior role. I couldn't afford a car. I couldn't afford anything haha I wasn't even eating lunch it was that bad. At first it was much more difficult then sitting on my bum and earning minimum wage. But I wanted more. Some people never get that feeling for whatever reason.
I had an abusive family, had to heat water with a kettle for a bath who's overflow hole let cold air blow through from outside. No shower, no heating. Cracks in my windows and could see my breath when I went to bed in winter it was so cold. I just didn't want to live that way forever. I used to dream of living in a council house with heating and double glazing. My dad worked hard but refused benefits so we all suffered so his pride didn't, he always had money for a pint though... Now in a way maybe that drove me to want more.
Education is key I think though. Not just a school education but an education of life that says, there are resources out there even if you've fucked up you can still do better elsewhere. Oh and also I didn't have children young and before I had money to give them what I felt was best. And yes I had to make that actual choice at 22 whilst at the £13k job unfortunately and I didn't get paid for time off so I rushed back to work too soon as they didn't like when juniors took too much time off.
Can't regret it now though.
I have a child now who has everything. Private school, riding lessons, ballet, piano, everything. I try very hard to keep her grounded but she'll never know what it is to have to nearly wet yourself because you're avoiding sitting on a freezing cold toilet seat haha.

[loopdeeloo]

Actually one more thing that pisses me off is the amount of jobs that still look at my gcse. Employers can be hard work when they've come from privileged backgrounds that I do know.
I sit there in interviews and I'm like Hello I'm 31. My intelligence has somewhat changed from the 16 year old class clown level and it's clear on my cv I've had to work hard to become qualified at what I do. I'm thinking about resitting my maths gcse next year though to stop this happening. You can never stop learning!

[HelenaDove]

"Cleaners work very hard, but it's a job that requires no training. If done wrong, the worst outcome is a slightly disgruntled client"


Hospital cleaners work very hard. If done wrong the worst outcome is the MRSA bug!

[MuseumOfCurry]

"Cleaners work very hard, but it's a job that requires no training. If done wrong, the worst outcome is a slightly disgruntled client"

Hospital cleaners work very hard. If done wrong the worst outcome is the MRSA bug!

Cleaning is one of those jobs that people are quick to relegate to the low-paying category, but that's not necessarily true. I wonder why anyone would choose to clean for the NHS in any major metropolitan area, where inexplicably the stakes are higher and the wages are lower.

My cleaner, who is self-employed, charges £14/hr. She's married to a builder who makes a bit more. She cleans factories in Park Royal on Sundays and commands a premium, I understand industrial cleaning is at the top of the range.

They just bought their first rental property in Krakow, having spend their summer holiday doing minor renovations. They're not privileged in any sense other than being able-bodied, they're just shrewd and ambitious. She just told me yesterday that they're not going home for Christmas because airfare is too expensive, they're going in January instead and picking up extra work over the holidays because everyone pays more.

[berliozwooler]

YY OP. I was on a school trip the other day and a couple of girls were saying they wanted to be wealthy when they grow up.

The teacher said "Well if you work hard..."

I pointed out that lots of people work very hard and are not rich.

[1Mother20152015]

In our family it is education which made the difference. Looking at the generations back (no one had anything much on any side of the family, always rented houses, were killed in mining accidents etc etc.. it's not a pretty story) it was when schools came out for all in England that various bits of the family started trying to "improve" their lives (whatever that means). I agree there is an awful lot of luck in it too. If you left school at 14 to dig coal (or 12 like one of my grandparents) it's quite hard to get the education that can help.

The people in the family who did well a bit more recenly since 1900 all did it by education, passing exams, going into professions. So for us it was not "where there is muck there is brass", the relative prosperity was found in book learning, exam passing and career choice. My parent who was a teacher transformed her life through that.

MoC my cleaner (from Middle East) and her family are starting to do well too. She and I have huge mutual respect as we both work pretty hard.

ahh just looked at "look"'s post just above - similar point to me - education can be key to it all. It is no wonder mumsnetters agonise so much over schools and helping children at home with their GCSEs and A levels because it does matter.

[PoppyPopcorn]

There's a lot of criticism of the grammar school system and we don't have it any more in Scotland, but it was going to a grammar which made the difference for my parents. My grandparents were all in traditionally low-paid manual occupations - factory work, admin in an office, agricultural work. But education was hugely valued and both of my parents got into the grammar schools or into the grammar stream in the only school in the area in my Dad's case. They both went on to teacher training in the 60s as the first of their families ever to access higher education.

It also depends on the choices you make. DH and his sister had exactly the same upbringing, both went to private senior school. Sister in law wasn't interested in working though, and left before sitting her A-levels. She immediately got an entry level job in a local firm and is still there 30 years on. She has progressed slightly in that time but her unwillingness to move location to another office, do professional training and take on responsibility means she'll never earn more than £25k. She was also married at 19 and pregnant at 20, her husband is similarly uneducated and unambitious.

It does make me quite cross when she witters on about how "lucky" we are when she had exactly the same start in life as DH and squandered it.

[sweetbitter]

I agree OP. I think the confidence/ desire to aim high and take on risk is another big factor.

[1Mother20152015]

Poppy, same here with my parents. Also in my father's family the generation before they had a bit more money when the older children were little before drunkenness through them into poverty and although they left school at about 16 one went off to be trained in the 1890s as one of the first nurses for 2 years and she forged a career, moved to London, rose to become a nursing sister (I don't think in the 1890s you could become a woman doctor in the UK so nurse was good for her from their background); and the older brother got himself articled to a solicitor and qualified (could not marry or have children until he was 50 due to lack of money but even so I think even managed to buy a house and m arried someone whose family had a bit of money so he did okay because he qualified - 1890s again). The mining relatives and ship yard workers and blacksmiths found it a lot harder due to lack of professional qualifications and lack of exam passes.

[User452734838]

The thing that really makes money is risk taking and having money.

One of my clients has made £200,000 in growth alone in the last 12 months or so.

Another's pension has grown from £400,000 to £900,000 in the last 8 years.

People who are cautious by nature don't tend to make a lot of money. They value paying their mortgage off more highly than taking risk in general.

[Titsywoo]

Well my dad and also my DH are now wealthy/well off. My dad was from a council estate and didn't get his gcses. He worked his arse off from the age of 15 and still is at the age of 65. He is a millionaire now. Luck? Well yes he is lucky but it was all down to the hard work and choices he made.

Dh earns 6 figures. He earned a pittance when we were in our 20s and then started trying new career paths and found one that suited him and worked his arse off.

The luck thing annoys me bit although I'm sure in some situations it is the case. People have to me before that we are lucky but the fact is that it takes working long long hours to get to this point. And family time takes a big hit. That is still the case - DH doesn't earn well for sitting around and delegating. I didn't see much of my dad when I was younger and when I did he was on the phone to work! DH is the same. They both have that same very determined personality and they live to work. It's often very tough to live with as a spouse tbh.

[PoppyPopcorn]

I hear you Titsy! DH is a high earner as we've made huge sacrifices as a family. He spent 9 months on secondment in China before we were married - I couldn't go too as we weren't married and I was working full time at that point. Then he took another job which meant he left home on a Monday morning and came home on a Thursday, he did that for about 18 months and we had two small children at that point. He's not home at the moment as he's been in the Middle East all week and won't land until lunchtime. We're prepared to make the sacrifices though and the hard times have meant he's now at the level where he is rewarded for the hard work and times away from home. The unpredictability has also pushed me into working for myself as a freelancer - something I probably wouldn't have considered if it had been easy to slot back into a 9-5 job after kids. So for us it's all been worth it, but it's not through luck that we are where we are.

[NotCitrus]

While it's true as my dad says "the harder I work, the luckier I get", to improve your situation usually needs some imagination and flexibility of thought. Working hard in local employment is all very well, but applying somewhere else, leaping at opportunities, is where higher pay is likely to come from. My parents' house nearly got repossessed in 1990 when interest rates got to 18%, but dad was offered the chance to work for some months tax-free in the Middle East. Half the team refused to go when they found out it was a dry country with no cinemas etc: he went but was one of two to last the first 3 months, and the only one willing to stay on. A couple colleagues lost their houses - we didn't. If you don't want to leave your home town, you are hugely limiting your chances. I've started jobs round the country sleeping on new boss's friend's granny's sofa or friend of a friend's floor - whereas my cousin says she could never get a job in London as she'd have nowhere to stay - my offered sofa wasn't good enough but basically the idea of moving city was too scary.

Wealth certainly helps though. Most of my school mates would say their parents haven't supported them financially beyond helping them move house. There's a huge difference between £2k towards moving costs, £20k making a larger deposit and lower rate, and £200k meaning you're only paying a few hundred a month on a low-rate mortgage and thus have £1000 more a month disposable compared to the middle scenario. Much, much easier to take risks then - and of course for every Alan Sugar there's ten people who lose their investment and go back to their safe job that pays the bills.

[1Mother20152015]

The thread just shows it is a complex list of all kinds of factors really but that it never does any harm to get good qualifications at school and to work hard and to take some risks (my daughter deliberately moves jobs for higher pay which a lot of women sadly don't - it's risky you can start somewhere and get sacked but it's the best way to get more pay); I started working for myself. I moved hundreds of miles for work. All risky things that might not work out. Lots of things I have done have not worked out. I have also made sacrifices other people would not like (taking business calls the day after giving birth and that kind of stuff but best of all I am lucky enough not to be ill - might of course be helped by the fact I don't drink or smoke but who knows.... luck comes into it too). Just try to push the odds in your favour by working hard, picking better paid work, trying to pass professional qualifications and move to where higher paid work is and take a few risks, don't drink too much or smoke and all in all you can improve your odds a bit.

[Kursk]

It’s a combination of hard work and the willingness to take risks.

You meet to work hard and want to be successful

[OnionShite]

Luck and privilege have had little to do with his success.

Luck has had everything to do with your DHs success. Because he must be intelligent and talented, and also have enjoyed sufficiently decent health to work as hard as he does. Those things are both a matter of fortune. He didn't deserve to be born smart any more than someone with an IQ of 80 deserved that. It's just the breaks. Had he been less intelligent and had poor health, he would not be in the position he is now. This is before we even get to things like having been born in Denmark rather than eg Somalia.

None of this is at all debatable, by the way. It also doesn't downplay the importance of the things he has had control over, or his hard work, or choices. It just means he needed luck to be on his side too.