To think this is not "normal" behaviour for a 5yo

[Moomoomango]

I literally hate my life we are constantly living in fear of my 5yo having a melt down. He is a lovely, kind, empathetic boy and then as soon as his behaviour is challenged he flips into a self distructive spiral.

This behaviour is frequent ( most days) today's example scenario:

In the garden he poured his glass of juice on his 2 year old brothers head. I told him in a stern voice that's not nice and I'm very disappointed with that behaviour. I said brother would have to have a hair wash tonight and so for fairness sake he would have to have one too. Queue various toy cars thrown at my head, hit, threatening to smash my head up and lots of I hate you's. I took his hand and lead him to his bedroom for thinking time, shut the door and he's piss protesting all over the floor. I'm at my wits end. He's screaming, hitting, going crazy.

I know I'm probably too soft as a parent and I know it's likely my fault. But is this a sign of something more sinister?

:( really hating parenthood in these moments, and feel so low.

[insancerre]

You need
Boundaries
Consequences
Consistency

I don't understand the hair washing punishment, it doesn't seem to follow as a consequence
I look after children and we have rule but they are positive rules
We use
Kind hands
Kind words

I also don't think time out is a useful strategy in that it doesn't teach them anything about handling emotions and situations
Is he maybe jealous of his youngest brother? Is he trying in a weird way, that only small children can do to get your attention?
We talk a lot with the children about how actions make us feel sad, so the consequence of them misbehaving is to make their friends, and the adults feel sad. Empathy is hugely important,so we ask them how they would feeling someone did something to them

We use books, puppets, and real life situations to discuss behavioural expectations and give them the language to describe their feelings
We involve the children to write the rules and praise them when they follow them " well done, you used lovely kind hands to help me tidy up" " I love it when you use your kind hands to give me a hug"
Its very effective when done right as children love praise
Another thing we do is we put all our attention on the injured child and ignore the aggressor, except to give them a firm " stop! We do not kick, hit, pour juice on people" then focus all your attention on the other child
This is a at of breaking the cycle that some children are in of misbehaving to get attention because they just don't get any

And if your child behaves at school, then its because you have done a good job. You don't want them to misbehave at school and be good at home

[Thebookswereherfriends]

Have a look at the website Aha parenting and get Dr Laura Markham' s book - calm parents, happy kids. It sounds like your son needs connection with you, he has unmet needs and lashes out because he can't explain that.

[Kalizahara]

I'm sorry op but I don't think it's normal behaviour, no.

Hard to why why he's doing it though. Your idea of a punishment of hair washing sounds very odd to me. Washing hair isn't/shouldn't ever be a 'punishment' but an essential washing routine. I'd say instant removal, time put, apologising to brother and a chat about unkind behaviour.

I think you should get some support with his behaviour. School, gp, local children's centre? Better to nip it in the bud now while he's little.

[Ceto]

Sorry Op, but in light of the fact he is capable of behaving well at school and other places, it all points to too soft parenting.

No, it really, really doesn't. It's incredibly well documented that frequently children with social communication disorders and sensory difficulties, for instance, are just about able to keep things together in school, only for it to come out with a bang when they get home: stresses build up during the school day or week, and come out when they are safely home with their parents.

It's this sort of misconception that leads to far too many children not getting proper provision for learning and other difficulties. I'm not saying that that is the case for your child OP, but it needs to be checked out.

[Italiangreyhound]

Moomoomango my dd has autistic tendancies and got very difficutl at age 6.

We ended up looking at childen's mental health servies, CMHS, and they provided some help, and we are now looking into this again as she is older.

I would recommend following your instincts, if the school will not help try the GP, although you maybe be able to self refer, I would go via health visitor or school link worker if you can, for support.

"I just wonder if it's something I'm doing wrong" I doubt you are doing anything wrong, but maybe you need a very systematic response.

"...or if his has an issue I can help him with such as autism." Sounds possible, can you explore this?

"I Feel if I went to his teacher she'd laugh me out of the room because he's so quiet and well behaved."

The teacher at school will not know the full picture and should be well educated enough to know this. If they laugh at you they are showing their ignorance and you should seek help elsewhere, EG GP.

[Augustlou30]

Im reading 123 Magic and going to have a go at this method.

[Happyhippy45]

My dd was to a lesser degree like this. An absolute angel at school and complete melt down at home. My Ds (dds younger brother) had frequent meltdowns at home and school. Both I suppose we're quite sensitive and we were guilty of inconsistent parenting.

We introduced the naughty step. 1 minute per year for their age. Took a while to work but it did. Also when they had served their time out they have to apologise, not by just saying sorry but saying for example "Sorry for pouring juice over your head." It's amazing how effective this was.

Also introduced a reward system for doing nice/good things.
Lots of positive reinforcement.

Made clear to them the consequences in advance of not doing what they were asked to do and gave them a chance to make the right choice.
If they made a mess on purpose, getting them to help clean it up, if they refuse to help then give consequences.

Spending time with them individually. Like I would leave one kid at home with dad to do something fun and I'd go out with the other to do something fun. Sometimes we didn't even plan an activity.....just being on their own with a parent running an errand etc.

I feel for you. It's not easy. Keeping calm is one of the hardest things to do when they are pushing all your buttons!

If it doesn't improve I'd take him to gp.

[Italiangreyhound]

PLEASE OP do not take comments about your parenting to heart. I had lots of this even from family members. People outside the family often have no idea what you are coping with and how. They may have very well behaved kids who never stretch them. They feel this is because of their excellent parenting etc.

Try and make contact with other parents who are struggling with difficulties, maybe an autism support group. Even if you son does not have autism you may find some of the 'coping' techniques and/or support is good for you.

DD was very difficult from age 6 to 8 although we did have big flare ups and temper tantrums all through her life, very occasionally.

Here is a potted history of what I did.

Realised our dd had emotional issues, not just anger and she was struggling to manage them

Spoke to school and school link worker

Took all help I was offered, a wide variety of parenting courses, mostly fee.

Best one was Family Links Nurturing Programme which came free with a book called The Parenting Puzzle

The book can also be bought from the website. I was referred to the course by schools links worker and so got course and book for free (and there was a crèche, along dd was older so did not need to use it).

I found this book helpful <a class="break-all" href="//www.amazon.co.uk/What-When-Temper-Flares-What/dp/1433801345?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">What to do when your Temper Flares

Our dd is dyslexic and this has definitively added to the issues. If this is a factor seek help for it, if not, great.

Please keep looking for help for you and your son, be as clear and systematic as you can in your interactions but bear in mind the strict Super Nanny, never back down, approach doesn't work for all. We had to abandon this when it did not work. I think some parents think that we have never done the 'strict' approach, we did. It didn't work. You need to find what works for you and your son.

Good luck.

[DuoTwo]

Why do you think you are too soft?

Do you sometimes ignore him or give in to him?

[MsHooliesCardigan]

OP just to say that, although you will get lots of traffic here, you will get more sympathetic and knowledgeable replies if you post in the Special Needs section.

[Littlepond]

The fact that he is well behaved at school doesn't mean he is choosing this behaviour at home. School can be a great place for some children with additional needs if there is a clear routine, boundaries, expectations etc. Or it could be that he is expending all him energy conforming at school and it all comes out at home. I wouldn't rule out some kind of social/communication difficulty just because he is "good" at school.

I would speak to GP or HV, but in the meantime you need clear, consistent boundaries. You need to make expectations really clear, and the consequences of what happens if those expectations aren't met. Use really simple language and try (! I know it's so hard!) to stay calm and keep your voice even.

And Stop blaming yourself! That isn't going to help anyone. Just look at the issues in front of you and find a way forward. If he starts weeing on the floor, move him to the bathroom, then when he is calmer get him to clean up the wee. Make it clear to him "if you wee on the floor you will have to clear it up"

And validate his feelings "you are really angry right now". Without judgement, without trying to fix his feelings, just echo it back to him.

It sounds like he is struggling with big feelings. It may be useful when he is calm to try and talk to him about how he feels when he is having a "rage" - in a calm not judging way, just talk to him about why he is acting that way. You might be able to find a different way for him, like if he is angry he can thump a pillow. Does he like drawing? My daughter went through a really angry phase and would draw pictures about it, like pictures of me outside the house because she was cross with me and didn't want me inside lol. Then when she was calm we could talk about the pictures.

[DaisyDando]

I doubt you're doing anything wrong. I hope this passes. Sounds like your children have a nice life, thanks to you.

[Italiangreyhound]

There are alternatives to the naughty step in the parenting puzzle. Naughty step worked fine for dd when she was small but with our adopted son we did a different version. It is called take a break.

There is an area with cushions etc and he will go on take a break if he is naughty.

You practice with a teddy first.

If Teddy is naughty or difficult he gets a warning, positive language. You need to be calm and play nicely (as clear as you can and avoid negatives if you can - e.g. use an indoor voice instead of stop shouting).

If teddy keeps on playing up the child puts him on take a break for 2 minutes. Regardless of teddy's age.

When he comes off take a break you just carry on playing nicely. The idea is that asking for an apology or whatever bring up the thing that they went on take a break for. The idea is it is a distraction technique.

Naughty step works fine for some kids but if it doesn't for your son, then try Take a break, but remember to step him through it with Teddy first and always give a warning.

[SloanePeterson]

It's really not about your parenting. My ds is 8 and has asd and add. His behaviour sometimes (often) has driven me to tears. And I constantly question if I've been too soft and this is all my fault. It's not. Dc with certain additional needs are notorious in their ability to hold it together in different environments and then kick off elsewhere. We are 'lucky' that ds kicks off at school as our concerns were taken much more seriously. People need to think before they blame stuff like this on lax parenting. If you haven't lived it, you have no idea, and its attitudes like that that make me dead taking ds out in public. I can feel the judgey 'bad parenting' glares at 50 paces and without a doubt think each and every person throwing them my way is a dick.

[missyB1]

Try to make consequences fit the bad behaviour. Hair washing is not a consequence! For deliberate weeing I would make him clean it up and wash his own pants / trousers at the sink.
You need a big poster with house rules and consequences on it, so that he knows exactly what's expected of him.

[SuperPug]

If he behaves well at school, I would guess they're quite clear about consequences.
It sounds like he's resentful of his younger brother in some ways? Could that be addressed?
Five years old is normally past the tantrum stage of 2s and 3s so I would probably see your GP as well if you think something else is going on.
Sorry OP, it does sound like you're a little soft with him. He's got to love and respect you and contrary to some threads on here I think you need to be a bit harsher on him. I'm not saying he should fear you by any means but there needs to be recognition that what you say and do is the final word.

[SusieOwl4]

Lots of good advice , but also you seem to be blaming yourself ? What about your partner? You should both definitely agree and participate fully in the way forward and keep discussing how things are progressing because I think it it vital that the same message is coming from both of you at all times.

[Slightlyperturbedowlagain]

I guess you need to consider how often this is happening and work out if he is likely to have additional requirements or not. My second DS who is now 8 definitely doesn't, but went through a phase of extremely difficult tantrums from about 3 until nearly 6. He would have 2 or 3 per weekend and get so worked up he would be literally beside himself. We used to despair, but stuck with the 'naughty step' process we were using, though for him he just had to sit quietly on it for 1 minute to be let off. This was because he would get so worked up he would actually spend 5 minutes shouting and throwing himself at the hallway door which I had to hold shut with my foot. I used to just calmly repeat 'when you have sat quietly for 1 minute you can come out'.
We got there eventually through calm consistency, but it was honestly horrible, bloody hard work and soul-destroying at times, but I will not be punched and screamed at. He still likes his own way but doesn't tantrum in the same way anymore-some of it I'm sure was because he couldn't verbalise what he felt, and now he can express it better he doesn't 'get the rage' in the same way. He is, and always has been, a lovely little boy in every other way. I would recommend looking through some behaviour management options (simpler the better IMO) and choose one you think might work and then stick with it. With my DS you really can't use a 'no, no, no, oh alright then' approach as if you give him an inch he takes a mile. My eldest is totally different so it was a real shock! Good luck, I feel your pain

[SloanePeterson]

Which is not to say that I'm in any position to diagnose your ds op. But certainly ask for referrals to the relevant people. Diagnosis is a long and soul destroying process, the sooner you access help the better. Are there any local charities that could help? I'm very grateful to one near me which has allowed me to meet many mums in the same position. You'd be more than welcome st ours even prior to diagnosis as so much of the behaviours sound similar to what we all deal with. Getting supportive people around you is key. I felt I was going slowly crazy before we finally moved to a school that immediately picked up on ds's difficulties and referred us to the right people

[DitheringDiva]

My older DD was similar to this, although I think she might have been over the worst of it by the time she was 5, so maybe she wasn't quite as bad. Like you, our house is very placid and calm, both parents living together, very rarely argue, and even then it's just the occasional raised voice. However, we were both also vile as toddlers - both of us had horrendous tempers - if my mum said "no" I would bang my head on the floor and carry on until I got my own way. I was particularly shocking with food - I basically point blank refused to eat anything unless it was chips, baked beans or chocolate - I could scream and howl for hours, make myself sick etc. My husband used to hold his breath until he passed out, and is mortified now at some of the things he did to his younger brother. It was all eventually trained out of us by our parents being very strict with us and we're both meek and mild adults now. We've had to do the same with our DD - be very strict and NOT give into the temper tantrums and have very clear consequences that really mean something. At the end of the day, as long as they're not hurting anyone or themselves, then leave them to it - even if it lasts for hours - it's not doing anyone any harm. I find taking something away from them that they really like is the best thing, especially if it's something you think they should be doing less of anyway eg. TV, iPad use. If in the midst of their meltdown they are doing something dangerous (throwing things), then I remove ourselves away from them until she's calmed down. In your scenario above, he would have lost TV or iPad time for the juice incident and if he then started kicking off even more eg. throwing toys, I would take the TV/iPad away for more hours/days and/or taken all the toys away, or anything else he was throwing. I never go above 1 week of no iPad/TV though - if they're still kicking off by that point, then I leave it and leave them until they've calmed down, and then usually have a long talk to her later (it can be hours later). It's rare though that she thinks she's done anything wrong. When she was younger, during really bad times (running up to Xmas was always bad), I would do a sticker chart alongside and she'd get a treat for every day she got through without a temper tantrum. Carve out some time in the day to spend one on one time doing something he loves as well eg. read him a book, play a game, go for a walk, kick a ball around with him.

Sorry about the essay, but thought it might help.

[Oakmaiden]

I get the feeling from your post that the problem behaviour is relatively recent. Is that the case? Or has he always been challenging to parent?

[Itsnotwhatitseems]

what would his reaction be to being put in pull ups following a piss on the floor episode? just been reading about something similar and the child soon stopped as he hated being babied

[Merrymumoftwo]

He may have something else going on but I don't pick up it being autism from your post.
You said that he smirks after so he is aware his behaviour is wrong but does it anyway. Children with classic autism tend not to do this look up the triad of impairment for more information.
Speak to school and ask how he responds when challenged there.
Apologies if I miss it but how does he respond when another adult challenges him?
Is there an option of 1:1 time with him where you can talk and see if something is upsetting him?

[booksandhearts]

I think gp and referral sound good, as I don't think I've come across this kind of behaviour either.

I think if he can hold it together at school, then I'd say there isn't an immediate problem with his behaviour (such as, autism etc),

I think he needs more examples on how to play, rather than him being the leader in play, iyswim.

So you make him apologise and then say to him this is how we play & it's a lot more fun this way.

Good luck!

[Graceflorrick]

This is extremely unusual behaviour OP, I would seek professional support to ensure that your DS can receive the intervention he needs to express himself more positively.