To think this is not "normal" behaviour for a 5yo

[Moomoomango]

I literally hate my life we are constantly living in fear of my 5yo having a melt down. He is a lovely, kind, empathetic boy and then as soon as his behaviour is challenged he flips into a self distructive spiral.

This behaviour is frequent ( most days) today's example scenario:

In the garden he poured his glass of juice on his 2 year old brothers head. I told him in a stern voice that's not nice and I'm very disappointed with that behaviour. I said brother would have to have a hair wash tonight and so for fairness sake he would have to have one too. Queue various toy cars thrown at my head, hit, threatening to smash my head up and lots of I hate you's. I took his hand and lead him to his bedroom for thinking time, shut the door and he's piss protesting all over the floor. I'm at my wits end. He's screaming, hitting, going crazy.

I know I'm probably too soft as a parent and I know it's likely my fault. But is this a sign of something more sinister?

:( really hating parenthood in these moments, and feel so low.

[mikado1]

How are you doing Op? I was thinking also that getting out to tge park/woods etc might help. My chsllenging child is a dream when out and about and there's little or no misbehaviour on days like that so it's hugely positive all round. Interesting post above 're anxiety, just shows that all behaviour is communication - he is having a hard time for whatever reason so it's up to us as parents to help rather than punish.

[CloudPerson]

I've only skim-read this, so may have missed stuff, but a few things stood out from some of the comments.
My 11 yr old has PDA. Until recently he has piss protested (never knew this had a name ) and has smirked. It's very common in autistic children for facial expressions to be off kilter, and not quite match the emotion they're feeling, ds smirks when anxious, which coincides with some really awful behaviour, so smirking shouldn't necessarily be taken as a sign of guilt.
Also behaviour in school - masking is common with ASD and (anecdotally) seems to be done with greater skill with PDA. My ds masked to the point where no-one (apart from volunteer parents in school who presumably didn't have any remit to offer or suggest support ) could see any sign of anything going on. He just about held it together in school and was incredibly difficult and often violent at home. He is now home ed as he couldn't cope at school, even though he still looked fine.

I would have a look at the book The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. Children who behave like this are often doing so because of lagging developmental skills, not parenting.
Even if you don't suspect PDA I would have a look at the website The PDA resource, it has lots of links and parenting tips which will also help a more challenging child whether they have PDA or not.

[BarbarianMum]

Sounds quite a lot like my ds2.
Avoid escalation. Consistent boundaries are good. Punishing him into behaving himself won't work and wi in fact make things worse (I learnt this the hard way).

Don't jump to conclusions about the smirking. Ds2 smirked to hide how upset and anxious he was about not being able to control his feelings and behaviour.

[gandalf456]

This sounds like my Dd (minus the weeing but she does other destructive things) . She probably would have done this at 5. I'd have reacted angrily as you may have done, understandably.

But I am with those who say punishing doesn't work even though we might feel it's what they need/deserve.

Dd is now 13. She came out of this phase (sort of) around 6 then regressed at secondary.

I found it very tempting to ramp up the discipline but it is and always has been counterproductive.

We are in the system (camhs). She has an anxiety dis order and yours sounds as if he's displaying classic anxiety symptoms.

Please do not blame yourself or let others do so. Children who do not have these problems respond to discipline. Children like ours do not.What works best is to talk to him while he's calm and try to get to the bottom of it while making it clear the behaviour is unacceptable. Explain what will happen next time and give him strategies as to what to do next time he feels jealous or angry with his brother ( I. E. Call you, talk to you, express verbally).

This sounds too much to handle at the moment and I'd chat with your gp. Don't be fobbed off by the 'if he behaves at school, he's OK. ' I know someone at work who was sectioned and had no idea she had mh issues. People are different at work and hold it in til breaking point but that's not how it works at home. The girl obviously wasn't ok if she was put in hospital!

[LivininaBox]

Honestly, I think that is normal behaviour. Very bad behaviour, but normal. I have been through a couple of similar phases with my DS. People upthread are reacting in horror at the weeing protest, but think about it from a child's view point. They piss on the floor, they get fireworks, so they do it again. It could be worse, at least piss isn't hurting anyone.

You need to respond in a calm, measured way - easier said than done I know, but blowing up will just encourage it. To me this sounds like jealousy and attention seeking. Is your younger DS potty training by any chance? Could older DS be copying his accidents to win back the attention?

These are the things that worked for me. Not reacting with anger or emotion to destructive behaviour; natural consequences (eg clean the floor); making consequences boring; avoiding confrontation (so for example I stopped using time out as that seemed to invite him to challenge me by not complying); talking a lot about emotions and reading books about emotions.

What didn't work for me was getting angry or using harsh consequences. While in normal life I think consistency is important, if you are in a crisis you need to forget consistency and find what works for him. If your son feels jealous and angry, lots of harsh punishment will make him feel worse.

[Fairylea]

I am surprised by people saying you are too soft. For me you sounded too hard - but maybe I'm too soft I don't know anymore!

I wouldn't have said you'd wash his hair as well, something like that should never be threatened as a punishment, you want self care to be a positive experience otherwise it builds problems later on.

So I would have just said a firm no and said we don't do that and taken any drinks not in sports bottles etc away and that would be that. If he did it again or went into a meltdown I would have just ignored him and reinforced even the smallest of good behaviours to encourage those.

It doesn't necessarily mean that if a child is good as gold at school that meltdowns at home mean poor parenting. Lots of children with asd and other difficulties find the routine of school comfortable enough to cope and then come home and let it all out- like a bottle of coke that's been shaken all day with the lid on and the lid taken off at home.

My son is 5 with asd and learning difficulties. I know the op didn't mention any special needs but I find love bombing and positive parenting (only praising the good things and ignoring the negatives) and distraction really work for us.

[UpTop]

I would agree with a previous poster regarding reading up on Pathological Demand Avoidance op. Also have a read of the Sensory Spectrum website, you may be surprise how much resonates with your situation. As well as the GP, an occupational therapist would be a good service to try, they can also help identify what may be causing the issues. Private ones offer Sensory Integration Therapy which may help a lot. Its tough to cope with day in day out especially as most don't understand the things you have to cope with because they don't have those experiences and kids can, as someone else said, mask at school meaning teachers don't always 'get it' too. but there is help out there and you most definitely aren't alone.

[hottotrotsky]

Love bomb the poor little lad instead of being so punitive. Peeing like that's a sign of distress. "Too soft", my arse.

[mikado1]

You've been given great advice here OP. He sounds in some ways like my DS when he's challenging . I agree with calm, plus investing in your relationship etc but I'll add: show kindness/concern in the face of anger. No child wants to be angry like that, I have found if I soften rather than toughen, the anger melts and I have an apologetic child who needs a cry and a few tears. One thing I woukd say also is, don't be afraid you can, hold the line and show him you're able for him-he can probably sense your fear/uncertainty and that's frightening for him. Best of luck.

[hottotrotsky]

He's jealous of baby bro and your meting out hair washing to him as punishment was inflammatory when you should have calmed him down. Time outs and punishments don't work - compassionate parenting does.

[Goodasgoldilox]

I agree with JollyRoger about how tired they get.

I did find my stormy one did need babying a bit due to school burnout. Perhaps go back a stage in expectations.

[Goodasgoldilox]

It isn't your fault OP - we all muddle along doing the best we can. Parenting is a tricky thing.

Luckily if things haven't worked well so far, you have plenty of time to try a new tack - and the overview to consider what to do.

Different strategies might work for you. Whatever you choose - be prepared to stick with it for a while and look out for changes.

However, I agree about being calm and consistent - if he responds to school discipline this should work for him.

First:
Establish positive things for him to do and praise/reward these. This is really important. He needs to feel very loved - especially if he is being particularly unloveable at the moment!

Second:
Treat bad behaviour with boredom when it is happening (don't inflame it) but make absolutely sure that when all is over and calm - that there are predictable consequences and that he is absolutely clear about what these are and why they happen. Never let him off these. They must be like day following night.

(If when he picks on little brother - this gets little reaction from you but the little brother lots of loving attention- - he will be much less motivated to try it again. )

[motherofdaemons]

Don't have any advice but when my best friend was 4 or so and her little brother was born she used to pee around the house deliberately, she remembers doing it! She's now a teacher and perfectly normal

[JollyRodger]

They are expecting too much of little children in school which probably means that you get what he has left. Which is a very tired upset frustrated little boy. 😔

[TooGood2BeFalse]

In similar position with my 5 year old OP. Except the wee protest :-D do PM if you'd like to chat

[Italiangreyhound]

talking to him

[Italiangreyhound]

"Pissing on the floor as a protest in unheard of" I think it is not so unusual.

I think one thing to add is to make the expectations positive. For example.

When you pick up your toys, we can go to the park."

Not if, but when.

Not what will happen if you do not pick up your toys etc.

Model good examples of doing things. Look at all these dirty pots and pans, now I (or Daddy) will start cleaning them, etc.

Also, be specific about behaviour you want, no running could be confusing, what do I do, stand still, walk, skip, hop... "Walk carefully/slowly/ sensibility (if he understands that word) we are by a road., and/or hold my hand we are about to cross etc.

It also does sound like maybe he is jealous of little brother. If he was 3 when brother arrived this is a tough age. I was only 18 months and was furious with my sister! I hit her with a toy. But very quickly I grew and forgot a time when she was not there.

My friend's 3 year old used to bang on the window when she breast fed her new baby. I think he shouted "Get off my Mummy!"

Might be worth talking about him about how he feels about being a big brother. Try and allow him space to tell you. Don't assume he will like being a big brother!

I am dyslexic and hate reading books but this book, is excellent!

<a class="break-all" href="//www.amazon.co.uk/How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen/dp/1848123094?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk

[Italiangreyhound]

Trb17 "With the best intentions, I do think that if you're asking if you're too soft then you probably are."

What is this based on? I;d say sometimes the opposite is true. Brilliant, excellent parents are so keen, sometimes, to do a really good job they can be their own harshest critics. While parents who could not give much of a shit are unlikely to be found scanning the Internet for articles on how to parent better.

The OP may be too soft but actually sometimes with an explosive child being very rigid and 'sticking to boundaries, which a parent may understand and a child not understand, can sometimes inflame the situation.

My friend has just given me a book called 'The Explosive child' I must read it or at least chat to her about it as my dd (now 12) can be quite explosive!

[Italiangreyhound]

Totally agree with StiginaGrump, great advice. Not read all the posts but some good advice here for you OP.

Also, smiling, smirking, laughing etc in embarrassing situations or when a person is angry with you can be involuntary actions.

parenting.stackexchange.com/questions/12261/why-does-my-daughter-smile-and-start-to-laugh-at-me-when-i-am-noticeably-really

I remember once my geography teacher showing my book to the class, all the gaps I meant to fill in and did not. I am fairly sure I smiled. I am fairly sure he took this that I was very satisfied with my 'job' of failing to do work and failing to catch up! I think I even remember him telling me to stop smiling. But it was so long ago!

I was mortified and saught to salvage a tiny bit of pride by trying to appear unaffected by his cruel actions. I was about 14 or so, a lot older than your son.

I do think we sometimes smile when we are just not sure what to say or do.

Also, my mum sometimes laughed when I or my sis did something like fall off our bikes (my sis and I do suspected our dear departed mum was on the spectrum).

Guess what! I do it too. In situations where I know it is wrong I start to laugh and have to stifle it.

It's nervous laughter.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nervous_laughter

I agree with DixieNormas I don't think the presence of smiling or of these things proves or disproves anything.

[LouKout]

Different behaviour at school and home does not rule anything out.

[MumsGoneToYonderLand]

ditto above. its a tough time, get all the help you can, and show you love him.

GOOD LUCK I know its hard.

[StiginaGrump]

OP you have some difficult and challenging times with your little boy who has always been sensitive.

You will get posters micro analysing your parenting fails to create this situation but most parents never have to be near perfection to have a reasonably calm house. Consistency is great but there are plenty of children for whom more punishment will create more poor behaviour.

I have known kids like this who have outgrown it... they are usually very sensitive and well behaved in external environments. It's the good parenting that helped them
Manage this but it was unsustainable when tired, hungry and around siblings.

It can also be the start of realising your child has some extra difficulty in processing life so using school and the GP is sensible too.

Do the parenting courses, read how to talk to kids and look at hand in hand parenting. Be careful about over tired and over emotional moments and praise all the good stuff you catch.

Non of us can tell what is going on from where we are but actually it can be normal for some kids - and quite common in kids who may have some pretty hidden extra needs.

Don't give a fig what anyone else thinks, find bits of fun where you can and don't let blow ups wreck the day. Later today I am meeting with someone whose child was infamous locally until 8 or so. He is an older boy now and the calm, bright class representative, the 'role model' and he is a lot of fun.

[MumsGoneToYonderLand]

It might not just be 'soft' parenting, although boundaries and rules are useful and healthy for kids.
I was very strict when need be but my son was a nightmare until age 7. DD was fine.
If he behaves well at school it could be his way of relieving stress (jealousy, pecking order issues) or something like oppositional defiant disorder.
My friends kid was the same - an angel at school and a nightmare at home. No TV midweek plus lots of physical activity helped!

get a book on dealing with defiant kids. there are loads around. Also contact your local children centre of child support service. sometimes they have groups/classes on parenting, which are useful for most people not just those with issues.
Its hard to maintain and tiring but be consistent, follow through with threatened punishments, reassure and empathise. explain what/why. make sure they have some 121 time with each parent.

I am currently reading 'how to talk to your kids listen and listen so your kids talk'. Only read the first chapter but DS noticed a difference in my approach! Must keep reading...

[Leaningtoweroflisa]

DS is 5.5 and he can be like this, he doesn't piss protest probably because he hasn't thought of doing it! He seems to be coming through it, he was much more uncontrollably furious from about 4.5 on but he still has a temper. The 'I hate you!' Has reduced a lot. As has the charging at me/ DH intent on hurting us. Luckily when they're that size, you can usually fend them off / hold them at arms reach!

We usually go with time out on naughty step or in bedroom. He is much much worse when he is tired or hungry - he gets hangry and if he's getting shouty and emotional, he is much improved by eating something. He's completely normal, not anywhere on the autism spectrum, just a little boy adjusting to school.

I've no other answers, just thought I'd share that DS seems to be growing out of it. He still regularly pushes all my buttons and is now in a 'huffy' back chatty phase. This comes with a side order of being better able to argue with me, which is frustrating as I don't like to resort to 'because I say so' as often as I now do!