AIBU re Flu Jab for healthcare professionals

[Libitina]

My Trust is now asking all managers to provide a list of who has had the jab and who hasn't in their department? They have also stated that if we have not had the jab and then contract flu, we will be invited to speak to the chief nurse of the Trust. They offer prize draws as an incentive, use peer pressure to get people to comply and blackmail by stating the sequin payment the Trust will get for a specific percentage of staff being innoculated will "pay for X amount of nurses" that I know we will never actually see.


AIBU to tell them to mind their own business?

[PacificDogwod]

We are also rapidly running out of antibiotics that work for multiresistant bacterial infections, and for overwhelming viral sepsis with multi-organ failure there is 'only' intensive supportive care, including mechanical ventilation.
Even the largest hospital does not have hundreds or thousands of ventilators, never mind the staff to look after the patients even IF none of them were off ill themselves.

On balance, best to have the jab. If you can.
Yes, it is a balance of risk, but I am quite certain which way the balance is tipped.

[ChestyNutsRoastingOnAnOpenFire]

I've had the vaccine, were given an extra annual leave day as incentive.

I would take issue with the way your trust are dealing with it OP. A chat with the chief nurse
The NHS is on its knees financially so pointing out the importance of CQUIN payments is wise if we all want to keep our jobs and have a NHS to treat us.

[Cornettoninja]

An extra annual leave day is a great incentive.

The trust I work for publishes their vaccination rates by department. I used to be very much of the mind it's up to the individual but the year after I had my dd (winter baby) and there was only a 10% uptake from the labour ward made me reconsider my position. If I'd seen that when I was pregnant I would have seriously reconsidered where to have my baby.

The nhs includes a few vaccinations as part of their pre-employment checks so it's not outside the realms of reasonable. There are very few departments that don't come into contact with vulnerable people and that carries a responsibility to protect them as much as possible. Even if it isn't perfect.

I don't agree with threatening unpaid sick leave for flu though. The flu jab isn't magical and last years missed the prominent strains. I don't think for one second they could/would actually do that and for that reason think empty threats are bullshit management employed by twats who shouldn't be managing people.

[Slightlyperturbedowlagain]

And of course unpaid sick leave just encourages staff to continue working when they have an infectious illness, apart from the fact that the evidence is that the only sure way to differentiate flu is by lab testing- milder cases of flu are frequently confused with other viral illnesses.
The 1918 pandemic is really interesting due to the peculiar circumstances at the time. Yes it could happen again, but to my mind there are lots of confounding factors that can't be compensated for when reviewing the figures: 4 years of trench-warfare, food shortages in many places, generally poor living conditions through swathes of the population. It's a very interesting (and scary) area of epidemiology.

[IcedVanillaLatte]

Lots of movement of people too, spreading disease all over the continent and beyond.

[everyonesgotanopinion]

Furrylittletwerp - The CQC do not insist at all that staff have a flu jab. They simply offer to give you a voucher to pay for it, if you want one. If you don't there's no issue and no records kept.

[EddChinasVagina]

Zombieeeeeeee

[Headofthehive55]

I think you are morally obliged to get the jab. No one forced you to work with vulnerable people for a career.
It's a bit like saying well I don't want to wash my hands too much in case I get sore hands.

[CPtart]

I'm a practice nurse who hasn't had the vaccine. Many many of our most vulnerable chronically ill patients refuse to have it themselves. If I had the vaccine annually for every eligible year of my life that would be from 18 years of age (started nursing) through to retirement and death, i.e., possibly 70+ flu vaccines over my lifetime. No thanks. Not yet anyway.

[Pippioddstocking]

CPtart - great advocate for public health there !!

[zeebeedee]

I had mine yesterday, I work in a hospital, but I'm not employed by the NHS. The trust keep a record of how many people have had the vaccine, and there are posters and regular e-mail reminders etc, but no one is individually targetted

[LakieLady]

I had the vax for 2 years running about 20 years ago. For the whole of both those winters, I felt bloody dreadful. Every damn day I felt as though I was on the brink of coming down with at least the world's worst cold.

I've never had it again and, despite working out in the community with a lot of people with health issues, I've only had flu once in all that time. The jab wouldn't have protected me that year, as the flu that was going round was a new mutation and the existing vax did not protect against it.

I'm sceptical, and think that people shouldn't be coerced in this way. I concede that the vaccinations may have improved in the last 20 years though.

[disahsterdahling]

Many young, fit healthy people died in that epidemic and it is not quite clear why

In fact isn't it the case that older people were less likely to die? Meaning that perhaps a related strain had done the rounds before and they had some sort of immunity to it and therefore had more chance of recovering?

There is a free course about flu on the Futurelearn platform. It is aimed at non-medics/scientists and is very interesting: www.futurelearn.com/courses/influenza

[Medeci]

I know this is a zombie thread but the prospect of being 'invited to speak to the cheif nurse of the trust' for not having a jab made me .
I'd be tempted not to have it just to see what he/she had to say. Hopefully they'd wait till I'd recovered from flu first.

[SpiderCid]

Its a difficult one, I don't work in the NHS so thankfully its not a decision I'll ever have to make.
But i am asthmatic so get offered the jab every year. Problem is I'm terrified of needles, I've had jabs when I've had to but I would never volunteer to have one I don't need.
I'm generally healthy and believe I've only ever caught flu once about 10 years ago.
I appreciate being a health care worker its for the best for the patients around you, but with my fear of needles I'm honestly not sure if i would be able to make myself have one.

[Rinceoir]

I'm a HCP, always get the vaccine. Usually find the drop in sessions hard to make though so do rely a bit on the team coming to Grand Rounds/OPD etc to do it! There is not a huge amount of data to say it protects patients, but it's not a study anyone is going to carry out. I also prefer not to get a bad flu generally, if I can avoid it. Also flu causes chaos in hospitals- I worked in a busy Dublin hospital during the H1N1 outbreak in 2010/2011- we rapidly ran out of beds, then trollies. ITU filled up quickly so lots of elective surgery was cancelled. And because we were short staffed due to staff illness HCPs were working even more insane hours than usual. Anything that we can do to make life easier during a flu epidemic should be done.

(And I know this is a zombie thread but it's still relevant)

[QueenJane]

I can't understand why you wouldn't?

As an HCP you understand vaccination better than many, and presumably also understand how important it is. They need to be really proactive about it. You are the backbone of our healthcare service - what do we do when half the NHS staff are struck down with influenza? It also protects patients. People who are immunosuppressed, on cancer treatments and those who are more vulnerable. Sorry, zombie or no, YABU. I am an HCP and paid privately to get it as I was going to miss the clinics at work.

[LookAtAllTheBullshit]

When I was nursing (left 2012), our trust tried to force staff to have the flu jab by saying anyone who doesn't have it but gets flu will get no sick pay and a written warning on record.
They changed their minds when the senior medical consultants said they better do all the correct bloods on I'll staff to establish what strain they had and if it was even covered by the current vaccine.
This is no opinion one way or the other on whether people should have the jab, just an example of heavy tactics.

[LadyLannister]

I work for an ambulance service and we've all been offered the flu jab, with incentives to take it. We got a £10 Love to Shop voucher for getting the jab and there will be prizes for whichever department have the best take up rate. I'm not front line staff, don't go anywhere near patients at all. The £10 voucher twisted my arm to accept the jab though.

[StepAwayFromTheEcclesCakes]

My managers don't have the god given rights to my private Heath records. I don't think they are expecting to see your private health records, they just need to know how many staff had the jab so they can count it for the CQUIN.

[niccyb]

I work for the NHS and don’t have the flu jab. It is my choice. I have known medical consultants and directors not to have it either.
The government insist we must have this. There are arguments for and against at the end of the day. The flu jab covers the basics of the strain yes but doesn’t cover all the strains.
uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-flu-vaccine/oxford-team-to-test-universal-flu-vaccine-in-world-first-idUKKCN1C80RA

I’ve also looked after elderly patients who have had the flu jab and gone on to develop pneumonia.
Why don’t the government vaccinate against TB anymore? As it isn’t cost effective despite claims that it is on the rise.
Why have the government opted for the HPV vaccine instead of routine smear tests for under 25 year olds-because it’s cheaper yet we still don’t know whether it will protect up to 15 years as it claims as in the clinical trials they only followed the participants up to 6 years and there is no long term hard evidence to show this.
Always read between the lines and look at the clinical trials and then make your decision.

[QueenJane]

We do vaccinate for TB, in major cities and high risk areas. My local authority hasn't had a case in years. It's also totally treatable with antibiotics. Influenza is not.

Routine smears in under 25s would show up a large number of false positives, as the cervix in a young woman is still in a growth phase which can show abnormal cells.

I have made an evidence-based decision to have my flu jab.

[CPtart]

Sod public health Pippi. My own personal long term well - being is more important to me.
If thousands of chronically ill, vulnerable people refuse to take responsibility to protect their own health, I sure ain't going to take steps possibly detrimental to my own health largely for their benefit.
And if I go off sick, that's unfortunate. The NHS has had more than their pound of flesh out of me.

[LucyLambstealer]

Op, you said good hand hygiene is enough to prevent transmission but it really isn't. Every time you cough or sneeze with flu you are creating aerosols which can travel much farther than you think and infect people. Good hand hygiene does not eliminate flu it lessens the risk of transmission, substantially but not completely. No matter how well you wash your hands you will never get rid of every viral particle you expel when you cough/sneeze. Influenza can stay viable for several hours outside the body and you will be infectious for a significant period of time before you physically feel ill when you catch flu.

If you are working with vulnerable people then you should be vaccinated, otherwise don't work in a hospital or care home. How would you feel if your mum or grandmum was in hospital with cancer and died because a nurse couldn't be bothered getting the flu shot? Influenza kills vulnerable people, it might make you feel cruddy for a few days but it is very serious for other people in society. Hospitals these days are doing everything they can to increase flu vaccinate uptake because too many people don't consider how their actions might affect others.

[itsbetterthanabox]

I don't understand why you wouldn't have it? Both for your own health and to stop the spread of it to vulnerable ill patients.
I assumed all HCP would have it tbh.