AIBU re Flu Jab for healthcare professionals

[Libitina]

My Trust is now asking all managers to provide a list of who has had the jab and who hasn't in their department? They have also stated that if we have not had the jab and then contract flu, we will be invited to speak to the chief nurse of the Trust. They offer prize draws as an incentive, use peer pressure to get people to comply and blackmail by stating the sequin payment the Trust will get for a specific percentage of staff being innoculated will "pay for X amount of nurses" that I know we will never actually see.


AIBU to tell them to mind their own business?

[AwaywiththePixies27]

My Ex works in a hospital and has to have the flu jab each year because he comes across the patients on a daily basis. Only underlying problem he has is a blood pressure one that is monitored and managed well.

There was a flu drive at my DSs school last year and this year and I refused both times. Mainly because the last time he had an injection it very nearly killed him. (His temp went through the roof with Calpol and Nurofen having no effect and being rushed into hospital twice with breathing difficulties).

I ended up in hospital in spring this year with the flu and bronchitis. I can see the incentive behind it OP but I'm wondering what you'd be called to speak to the chief nurse about it? Would it be for a telling off or to just be reminded of the risks ans complications of catching the flu? Which presumably you'd already know with you working in a health setting.

[AwaywiththePixies27]

*sorry meant to say I know the immunisation for children is a spray but I've still been advised by DSs doctors not to have it given the last events.

I agree with the comment about it being heavy handed management. I'd have a problem with that too.

[BoomBoomsCousin]

I see the point that people shouldn't be forced out of their jobs because they refuse something they had not been told would be required when they started, But I don't think it would be unethical if being vaccinated was a stated requirement for all people who have not yet started training. Then people would know that they could work in that kind of profession only if they were happy to ensure they were less of a risk to patients by having the vaccinations.

There's probably a case to be made that refusing treatment makes you unfit to do the job just as, for instance, refusing to have your eyesight corrected could make you unfit to do some jobs, and so following that line of thinking it could be ethical to insist on vaccinations for all HCPs. But I have a harder time buying into that.

As for the heavy handed management, I think that's rarely the best way to go, but if uptake is as low as 24% I can see that they are probably throwing everything (that's not too expensive) that they can at it and trying to see what works. I think it will hurt other areas of performance though, especially if they are unsuccessful at changing the culture.

[rewardformissingmojo]

Stratters so sorry to hear this. Thank you for sharing your story.

[AwaywiththePixies27]

Stratters

[Out2pasture]

here in bc (Canada) the flu jab is required of all hospital staff. if for any reason you do not immunize you are forced to wear a mask and a badge for 6 months of the year (not joking mandatory mask, which needs changing every 10 minutes). if there is an outbreak (based on population)then you will be sent home without pay.

[AwaywiththePixies27]

Out2pasture Every ten minutes?

[CPtart]

I've been nursing 26 years, with potentially another 20 to go. Then perhaps another 20 years of flu vaccine as an over 65. That would be 66 flu vaccines at least in my lifetime. I refuse to have it. If my medical circumstances changed I might consider it. My employers aren't offering it me because they are concerned about me, they just don't want me to go off sick (understandably) and because I could pass it to patients. But thousands of eligible chronically ill and elderly refuse it themselves. I see that every day. I've had flu twice and it's awful but my choice at this moment is to decline, and they can bollock me all they want.

[Perfectlypurple]

We don't force the vaccination where I work but we ask who wants it then pre pay for vouchers, so it costs us money for everyone who says they want it. I think so far only 40% have used their voucher. The bosses are not happy that people have asked for it then not got the vaccination after we have paid for it. Not sure what the consequences will be. I got mine soon after receiving my voucher so I had the cover as early as possible. Ultimately employers want to restrict the chance of having multiple people go off sick which I don't blame them for.

[Trifleorbust]

The argument about passing it on to vulnerable patients at least has some merit. The argument about reducing NHS sick days?

[Ouchiebum]

I'm the person responsible for flu vaccs in my trust. I agree that there shouldn't be bullying and coercion, but do feel that staff should protect patients and each other.

The flu cquin is worth 1 million to us. To clarify, cquin funding is part of overall funding from ccgs but has targets attached, if you miss the targets, you loose the funding. There is graduated payment for graduated achievement. While there were 3 cquins for health and wellbeing, the income from them doesn't get spent on that, it goes into the big pot. We do get a small amount of funding to help us achieve them, in our case 6% of the cquin income. All of this has gone on health and wellbeing activity, as defined in the cquin guidance.

After having heard many of the excuses for not getting flu vaccine I am sorely tempted by the Canadian approach as described by out2pasture. Patients need protecting - you choose whether you want to do that with a vaccine or a mask.

[Trifleorbust]

Yes, I would also agree the Canadian approach is reasonable, providing there is protection for staff wearing the masks from questioning from bosses and patients about why they refused the vaccination.

[CPtart]

I'd wear a mask. I wonder if all eligible patients in at risk groups who refuse the flu vaccine would wear one too in a clinical setting?

[Purplesky2]

HicDraconis has captured my thoughts on it as nhs worker myself. It is a yearly vaccine of uncertain use - certainly just about lasting the winter before being useless. If it was a lifetime vaccine such as hep b (which is protecting the hcp) then sure but a sore arm for a vaccine that it a "good guess" for less than 4 months cover is not something that should be compulsory

[shovetheholly]

I would really like to be told when I am given medication exactly what it is I am getting. I have had the flu jab this year, but I have NO idea what strain it actually protected against, and the nurse didn't seem to know either. Can anyone on here tell me?

(On a related but tangential note: I would also like healthcare professionals to tell me exactly what drugs I am being given in hospital, and exactly what doses, rather than just vague things like 'a painkiller'. I want to know what anaesthetic I'm having, and how much).

[FallenMadonnawiththeBadBoobies]

Thank you, Mrs Morton, for setting out your reasons. I'm not convinced that a bad reaction to one type of vaccination is a strong enough reason to reject another type of vaccination, but as you aren't dealing with vulnerable patients, I don't have an issue with your choices.

I suspect that many who are arguing against the jab have neither had flu nor seen it at close quarters. It really isn't simply a bad cold. Ive had it once, many years ago, and I thought I was dying. I was an extremely fit young woman at that time.

[BoomBoomsCousin]

Shove the NHS website normally has the details. This year:

Most injected flu vaccines protect against three types of flu virus:

• A/H1N1 – the strain of flu that caused the swine flu pandemic in 2009
  
• A/H3N2 – a strain of flu that mainly affects the elderly and people with risk factors like a long term health condition. In 2016/17 the vaccine will contain an A/Hong Kong/4801/2014 H3N2-like virus
  
• Influenza B - a strain of flu that particularly affects children. In 2016/17 the vaccine will contain B/Brisbane/60/2008-like virus
  

The nasal spray flu vaccine and some injected vaccines also offer protection against a fourth B strain of virus, which in 2016/17 is the B/Phuket/3073/2013-like virus.

[shovetheholly]

Boom - thank you SO much. You're a mine of information. Really appreciate your help.

I have another question (sorry) about pandemics. Is part of the rationale for insisting that NHS staff are protected that there won't be a shortage in the event of a global pandemic that is really, really virulent?

Also, I know from history that previous pandemics killed unimaginable numbers of people, e.g. in 1918 when well over 50 MILLION people are supposed to have died (and that's probably a conservative estimate). Could that happen again?

[frikadela01]

There was a flu outbreak in a care home in my area about 5 years ago. It resulted in a number of deaths and apparently was traced back to staff members who had infected the patients.
The infection control team in my trust (who administer the jabs) are in and out of the wards on all different shifts trying to catch all staff. Of course it's about protecting the patient but stopping staff taking sick days is just as important. Sick days cost the nhs money and surely as we all fund the nhs we want the staff to take as few sick days as possible.
I always have my jab. I've had flu once. Hopefully never again.

[SpeckledyBanana]

I have another question (sorry) about pandemics. Is part of the rationale for insisting that NHS staff are protected that there won't be a shortage in the event of a global pandemic that is really, really virulent?

Yes. Trusts have pandemic plans, which include what happens if they lose large numbers of staff to sickness absence.

[PacificDogwod]

Stratters! How bloody awful!
And how random and unpredictable.

Pandemic planning meetings are bloody frightening - of course they look at worst case scenarios and so far bird flu/swine flue/'normal' flu has not been anything like those, but I truly try not to dwell on what it might mean.

[PacificDogwod]

I know from history that previous pandemics killed unimaginable numbers of people, e.g. in 1918 when well over 50 MILLION people are supposed to have died (and that's probably a conservative estimate). Could that happen again?

Yes, it could.
It is poorly understood just what made that particular strain of influenza that virulent and aggressive. Many people will have died from the primary infection and many from secondary bacterial infections.
Many young, fit healthy people died in that epidemic and it is not quite clear why.
People cleverer than me are trying to figure that out.

[AwaywiththePixies27]

Yes pandemics could happen again.

When I got rushed into resus. The ward they eventually moved me on to to recuperate. A nurse told me last winter, they'd had young healthy adults with no previous admissions taking up half the ward space as they just could not fight whatever strain of flu or virus it was going around at the time.

I think we'd be a little more prepared nowadays, I'm thinking downton abbey and the Spanish flu scenario, we're a lot more medically advanced than those days but it is still possible it can happen.

[IcedVanillaLatte]

We're more advanced, but if those advanced hospitals are already full and you need hospital treatment it's probably a bit tricky.