To fall out with school re Kagan structures?

[saresywaresy2]

Hi, my son has just gone into year 6. He's lovely. He's academic, he's sporty, he's a lovely friend, and he tries his hardest at everything he does. He's always been well loved by his past teachers. This year the school has decided to move away from ability tables and has put the kids into kagan structures tables. We haven't been given any information about this and I am struggling to understand the benefits for the brighter children.
However, the main issue I have, is not that he's sitting with lower ability children, but that he's sitting with actively disruptive children. It's a big primary school with big classes and a lot of children who are difficult. Always having been on ability tables he has been away from the sharp edge of that, but now he's with a kid who is swearing and goading and being loud and basically making his life a misery. I've been to school and I've been told that they're giving the children tips on how to deal with it, and my child must tell a teacher every time it happens, and the other child will be punished by having to stay in and write the class rules out etc etc. I don't want this for him though, I just want him moving away, but they won't. AIBU?? I'm pretty sure I'm not and it is very unfair, so what should I do??

They give the children tips on how to deal with it?!! I'm sorry, isn't it supposed to be the teacher's job to deal with the disruptive kids while the other kids get on with learning????

I been looking at the Kagan structure stuff on the web. Boy its complicated. Do teachers have any time left for planning or marking work?

Dd really doesnt like who she is sitting with this term. I have parent's evening next week and I am trying to put my arguements together. One child is constantly pestering her for help.

Thanks for all the replies. I do feel guilty in that not wanting my son to sit with him, I'm making someone else have to do it. But then I get the rage again and think IT'S NOT FAIR!!!! I tried the teacher again this week and she says she is going to move them but can't tell me when and is loathed to rush into it as she's got some great relationships going on other tables.

I'm going to write to the headmaster I think. This week the kids had to do an individual reflection exercise with the teacher where they gave themselves scores of red, yellow or green for various aspects of school. My son gave himself a yellow for behaviour and she agreed with him. This is obviously quite normal, and you might think I'm being over the top here, but he really is a Peter Perfect. He is always such a goody two shoes, I can take him anywhere. He's quite different to my other kids and his friends in his maturity and behaviour. His last teacher for example said there weren't enough superlatives to describe him.
It's not a biggy but i think it's a sign of things not being right. We've been trying to think what's changed from last year and there are 3 things: a) the teacher who doesn't properly know him yet, b) having to sit with this disruptive child, and c) his hair. This is where I probably am losing my mind, but we let him have tram lines cut into his hair at the end of summer. Could the teacher have unfairly judged him and placed him in this position because of it?? (i am, very glad this is anonymous!)

I don't think that it's an acceptable response to your concerns for your son to be given coping strategies, he shouldn't have to cope with being goaded and intimidated. I think writing to the head is a good idea and then maybe the governors, but sadly if they stick to the line that it's something your child has to learn to cope with rather than something they need to deal with then I'd look to move him.

Tram lines in his hair causing the teacher to judge him? .

I think you're losing your way here OP. Breaking up disruptive children is better than leaving them all together to cause mayhem for everyone. Your ds didn't pick the short-straw. If you are concerned that he is falling behind then by all means raise it but I find your reluctance to him being grouped with anyone less than perfect rather offensive.

How is your son feeling about all this?

To be honest kids do change and your ds being Peter Perfect last year does not mean he will be like this forever. he may be more chatty this year regardlesa of where he sits. I think you have latched on to this other child as an explanation just like you are worrying aboyt his haircut being the cause.

Both my DDs were placed next to disruptive children. Not because they were brighter, but because they were quiet. One child in particular was very bright. He learnt best when fidgeting and talking. Great for him but not the rest of the class.

I agree with mixing abilities. The lower children can learn from their peers and the brighter children able to cement their learning by helping others.

Some children are more bouncy than others, or may have problems with their learning, but I'm only interested in MY child.

I think you may have misunderstood this system.

As far as I understand it,

You sit a higher ability student next to a medium - higher
Then a medium-lower next to a lower ability. These are called something like shoulder partners, the idea being that it helps students by modelling slightly higher work, or helps students confirm their own understanding by explaining /sharing it to someone slightly less able.

Then during group work you have a good mix of ability on the table and should structure your group tasks accordingly so that every child contributes.

I am no fan myself, but it isn't to do with behaviour at all if it's kagan seating.

So you should complain about the behavior and how school deals with it, but not the system itself iyswim.

Usually what happens is the high ability child had their work relentlessly copied by all the others.

Oh yeah - it's definitely the tram lines.

Let the, grow out quickly or your ds will be forever judged and even if he behaves perfectly 100% of the time like no child ever he'll be held back.

Right just landed back in the real world.

Plenty of fantastic doctors, nurses, teachers, and NHS workers etc doing amazing jobs with coloured, shaved, designed hair and tattoos.

Your DS is 10. The fact he has a yellow card for behaviour is no Biggy. Perhaps if he'd chosen green she'd have agreed with him? Teachers are very good at times at spotting the perfectly hard working kids who need to have the confidence to say they do their best and also spotting those who want to 'pretend' they have more faults to be contradicted and told in fact they are wonderful.
Perhaps she recognised yiur DS was saying he could behave better and wanted to encourage him to do so.

Seriously - the disruptive kids is and issue. But this isn't a low/high ability argument it's something the school needs to deal with.

The rest is nuts!

Hence why I'm not a fan! Needs meticulous planning to keep everyone occupied and also learning owt

She asked them to mark themselves for behaviour and he, given only 3 choices marked himself yellow and you think this is a sign of things not being right?

You need to chill a bit. The teacher might have prompted them to think they could always do better, maybe he's chatting in class whatever. Don't let your child know you think they are Peter Perfect or a goody two shoes as it is way too much pressure on them to maintain.

Thanks. I know I'm being crazy. I just can't understand why the school would want to put a really good kid off school. I don't go round calling him peter perfect etc, i just wanted to get across that up until this year he has really good and keen. It's horrible feeling so impotent and unable to help him :-(

Unfortunately this is one of those things that is always going to throw up the conflict between what is best for the individual and what is best for the whole group. This is the school's call because they are responsible for the whole group. I understand why you are unhappy but if I was the Head, I wouldn't make this decision based solely on what is best for your son.

"corythatwas

So if there are a lot of children who are disruptive, who do you think should sit with them?"

The other disruptive ones.

DS is the disruptive one in his class. Not to the extent of the child you describe and there is certainly no swearing etc but he moves. A lot. Bounces, twiddles, twitches and I can see how that would impact on the learning of others. The teachers solution to this was to place a desk on its own facing the wall for my DS to sit at. The result of this has been a massive decline in his own work because he no longer has anyone to bounce ideas off of and no one to remind him of what he's supposed to be doing.

It upsets me because I hate the thought of him banished to the back of the room all alone throughout his lessons but then I know that if he was to continue disrupting another child's learning then that would also be unfair.

So what is the answer? If group tables are the set way in a class there is always going to be someone being disturbed by someone else. How does a teacher decide which children "deserve" to be able to concentrate more?

I don't know what the best system would be. I'd hate to be a teacher, I do know that!

I think teachers should move the kids round regularly. That way no two children are sitting beside each other for too long. As a parent I accept that sometimes my kids will sit beside ones that are disruptive, but hope that it is only for a couple of months and not the whole school year.

Urgh. I taught KS2 in a school where a new headteacher arrived who was a mad Kagan enthusiast. We had to sit through endless INSET days of Kagan structure training. We all hated the "sit them on Kagan tables with one high, one high middle, one lower middle and one low ability". The headteacher assured us that this would lead to the low ability children's work being inspired and improved by the higher ability children. This is not what happened. In practice, the higher ability children were dragged down, distracted and achieved less than they were doing before. They didn't like it and constantly complained about not having peace to get on with their work.

I also hated being forced to sit children in groups facing each other, as I've always preferred in upper KS2 to have all children facing the teacher. I was not surprised that the level of chatting went up when they were facing each other and not me.

Another disadvantage was that previously the TA had been able to sit with a small group of lower-ability children (not all the time, but quite often), keep them on task and help them. Under the Kagan system, all the lower-ability children were scattered on different tables and she could not do this.

The headteacher went through our lesson plans with a fine toothcomb to make sure that one or two Kagan structures were shoe-horned into each lesson, even for lessons when it really wasn't appropriate. He also liked to pop in to make sure Kagan was in progress.

Most of the staff who were there when the new headteacher arrived have now left, including me...

Students generally like to have the same seat all the time in my experience, unless of course you are sat next to the disruptive partner!

Meant to add: I don't think your son's hairstyle would have any effect on his reputation! I'm sure his previous teacher passed on lots of notes about him/his work/his good character to his new teacher - and, of course, his scores on assessments from last year will all be charted.

My DS was a disruptive child last year he got a dx and is now a different child in school.

He spent the whole year sat by teachers desk...The class were regularly moved around him. He was sat by a hard working boy who really did just get on with his work so he would go and disrupt other tables. She sat him by various children.. In the end she sat him by a boy who was also disruptive because at least they were only disrupting each other.. This to me seemed fair ( although I was very frustrated with my DS at the time)

I can honestly say if a parent went in and complained about sitting by my DS at the point in time I would of completely understood. My DS wasn't swearing , just avoiding working..Now it has all come together it was because of his learning difficulty but has a high IQ so was bored.

If I was op then yes I would want my child moving. 2 children have been moved away from my DS this year based on something I told the teacher was affecting my DS...Not the problems the OP has at all but see no reason why they can't be moved.

I loved when my primary school teacher did this.

I was top of the class, despite having adhd, and very very bored. When I was sat with a boy with behavioural difficulties and another with dyslexia and a girl who was averge to low ability (& a close friend of mine) I spent my time teaching them & it meant I could manage to sit still as I could focus on others.

Eventually I worked in residential schools.

Education doesn't just come from learning from the teacher. Children learn and develope so much from mixing with different types of children, learn life isn't so easy for others, learn tolerance, learn to cope assertively with confrontations.

But it doesn't sound like it's working so well at present for your son. That's what you need to speak to the teacher about. It simpley isn't your son's job to monitor other children's behaviour and report, that's the teachers job. But don't request for him to be isolated with the other academic elites, he will miss out on learning so much that way.

First of all I wouldn't get involved in the methodology and pedagogy of how and why the teacher has a certain seating plan. Teachers are professionals and schools use a variety of ideas to try and improve both progress and attitudes to learning. I assume from your op that your son has expressed the difficulties that he is having? You have mentioned it once and the teacher has said that they are trying coping strategies. If your son is telling you that he is still unhappy then approach the teacher again and ask if his work is deteriorating or improving. The answer to this will guide the teacher and you to help your son. She will not want your son's progress to slow down and neither will she want him to be unhappy. You might have to be a little patient for a result though. Maybe there are LOTS of disruptive pupils in the class and it might be difficult to place your son away from them all. In the meantime keep talking with your son about how he is coping and encourage him by building a good relationship with the teacher if possible.