AIBU to not want brothels legalised?

[RoseanneDownton]

A lot of people aren't aware that our government is currently considering changing the laws on prostitution so that it will be legal to set up huge brothels.

They did this in Germany, not envisaging that they would end up with chains of 'megabrothels' in which 400,000 girls are needed to meet the demand. These poor girls are awfully degraded and have little control over anything. They are obliged to accept any man and do anything he wants, or get excluded by the owner. The majority have to be lured (or worse!) from other countries, as there aren't enough German women to 'service' the ever-increasing numbers of 'customers'.

Surely I am not the only MumsNetter who can't bear the thought of my daughters and grand-daughters being recruited into such places once they are legal in the UK. The thought of them having to go with an endless stream of strange, random men off the street really turns my stomach.

It's obvious to me that naive young girls will be persuaded that this is an 'easy way' to pay their student fees, get a deposit for a flat etc.

The other thing is, women have been fighting for equality for over 100 years, and this feels like a huge step backwards. I don't see how we can ever persuade men to respect women as equals when they can buy and sell us for sexual use.

It seems to me that the girls and women who will end up in the brothels are going to be the vulnerable and the desperate. It just seems like a way for men to exploit this vulnerability for their own selfish ends, and that's wrong.

Most ordinary folk don't think prostitution is any of their business, and to be honest, if it's just a 'discreet housewife' seeing a few 'gentlemen friends', I'm not bothered, either. But this national lack of interest means that those who want to open big brothels here are currently able to put a lot of pressure on the government behind our backs.

AIBU to not want brothels legalised, but to want to leave the law as it is?

I can see why it needs to be decriminalised in order to keep women safe.

It should never be legal though, it should never be acceptable for someone to pay for sex or sexual favours. I don't doubt that there are women out there who genuinely enjoy the work and the income they get from I find it hard to believe that the majority of women who end up in this line of work feel that way and that actually, many women end up in this line of work through desperation, addiction or mental health issues. How many women finish school and think "I know, I'll go into prostitution, the perfect career for me!" How many sex workers and punters would be happy for their children to go into this line of work? Not many I expect.

we can make an argument that sex workers have a right to sell sex
but what about the rights of other women to live in a society where attitudes towards woman are not shaped by the existance and acceptance of sex work

whose rights should take precedence?
the few women who are totally cool about 'giving consent in exchange for cash' and who 'enjoy it 95% of the time'
or the rest of us who have to put up with a male population which regards women as pieces of masturbatory equipment, who view sexual gratification as something they have a right to buy.

Ms cool sex worker may be able to have pleasurable sex with 95% of the ramdom men that she encounters but most women are way more fussy about who they have sex with and would be revolted by the idea.
We may seem 'outdated' but we are the majority, you can deride us if you like but if we were all as cool and liberated as you Brazenhussy we'd be stealing all your punters haggling down the going rate and you wouldn't be making 3 times the money for half the work.

I wonder if you'd still be enjoying 95% of the sex with random men if it paid the same hourly rate as the regular jobs that us uptight and outdated women do?

It should never be legal though
you do realise that prostitution is legal, dont you?

Yes I was referring to brothels, sorry if that wasn't clear.

my mistake imwithspud!

No worries, I didn't word my post very well in hindsight. I agree with the points you made wholeheartedly.

Is there anything else you'd like to blame prostitutes for shining? The weak pound perhaps?

I don't doubt that there are women out there who genuinely enjoy the work and the income they get
and further I would argue that these few women are 'free riding' on the rest of the woman who are harmed by prostitution, and society at large which is also harmed by it

Prostitutes often counter that they are exploiting the punters, by extracting easy money from them

I think they exploiting society at large, exploiting the taboo and harmful nature of prostitution for their own gain because they happen to be in the minority of women who can cope with that kind of work.

Is there anything else you'd like to blame prostitutes for shining
I dont think I am blaming them for anything, I am pointing out that they are opportunistic, a bit like drug dealers

then again most drug dealers arent daft enough to argue for legalization of drugs, they can see that it would have a terrible effect on their profit margins

prostitutes on the other hand want to score points for being victims of societal tutt tutting whilst at the same time crowing about the fact that they are exploiting a great way to make money

YANBU.

Wow this is evidently a very HOT topic!

This isn't about current prostitutes. It's about making policy for the future. Do we want to reduce prostitution or expand it? Making it legal always causes a massive increase in demand.

WHO is going to meet that massive demand?

I've read stuff by former prostitutes. They say that, whilst they were in it, they used to defend their choice. But not one recommends it or wants her daughter to do it.

The state won't cut off benefits for refusing to be a prostitute. It will take a few years for public opinion find that acceptable. They could withhold benefit for refusing to work in a megabrothel as a housekeeper, barmaid, receptionist etc. Once there, the prettiest, youngest and most naive would be selected and their resistance broken down.

The New Zealand system won't work: our country is nothing like NZ, which only has 3m people in a country about 4 times our size, and it's thousands of miles from anywhere. Whether we liked it or not, we'll end up like Germany.

A woman who was a prostitute in NZ posted online that she earned more when it was illegal. In a brothel, because of fees, she earned £26 per client. And that was taxed. I will try to find the link.

A prostitute who is 30 now will be 40 and then 50. If she gets the legalisation she seeks, and the megabrothels are full of men chasing nubile 18 yr-olds, will she still be able to command such high fees?

Why do enthusiastic sex workers who are empowered and want to to the work they do need to be kept safte? Safe from what? Violence perhapes?

YANBU.

How anyone can look at the situation in Germany and not see it as utterly horrific is beyond me. Supposedly legalisation would provide a safe environment, with health insurance and sick pay. In reality, brothels employ prostitutes as "independent contractors" - so no employment rights at all. They have to turn on average 4 tricks before they've even paid the room hire. Meanwhile, out on the autobahns, there are "booths" along the sides of the restplatz where truckers can pay prostitutes bargain basement rates for a quick screw. And it hasn't got rid of trafficking - trafficking has gone up. Nor has it got rid of street prostitution. By commodifying sex, it's made it socially acceptable to buy sex, so demand has gone up - and just as there's a market for cheap white sliced bread at 75p a loaf as well as artisan organic loaves, so there's a market for the cheapest street prostitution imaginable - prices have fallen as low as 5 euros in places.

And the views of the happy hookers on this thread who've argued that it's all sunshine and roses and unicorns farting rainbows - there's an interesting alternative view over on the feminism board from a sex worker with decades of experience saying that in her experience criminalisation of soliciting and brothel keeping (the UK model) and/or criminalisation of the purchase of sex (Nordic model) firstly keeps the punters on the straight and narrow because they know what they're doing could result in their prosecution if they step out of line, and secondly stops prices dropping to rock bottom. She reckons she is in a lot better position to refuse condom-free sex, anal, BDSM stuff she doesn't want in a legal framework like the UK.

Leeds recently experimented with a tolerated red-light zone - within a week, a street prostitute had been murdered. Street prostitution is inherently unsafe - there is nothing which can make it safe. But locking up the punters might reduce the overall amount of harm to women quite considerably.

Why not just put the gender to male. Being fucked in every hole by men day after day. After day. Young men. By women.

Sons all sexually post puberty and 'ripe' for the taking by women who like to penetrate. Penetrate all holes. 50, 60, 70 year old women, but most of those women in the 25 to 40 age group.

Is that palatable enough for all you enthusiastic sex workers?

So we've moved on from blaming prostitutes for men's attitudes towards women, to comparing them to drug dealers. It's horrible but not uncommon to see a woman with such hatred and contempt for sex workers. There are quite a few of you in this thread. The End Demand campaign is full of them too.

What prostitutes want has nothing to do with point scoring. They just want to be able to work safely. That's all. They don't want a man coming to rob them, rape them and beat them to death because he knows the law stops them from working in groups.

Shiningexample has a point.

We cannot base legislation on a tiny number of beautiful, glamorous, sassy, high-class, well-paid luxury escorts but on the vast majority, who are not that lucky.

"Howdy" - in Holland and Germany it's legal, and yet STILL not safe, because at some point the woman is going to be left alone with a random strange man who might pull of a condom when she's not looking, or become violent. How do you plan to remove those dangers?

manhowdy safely from what? Who are they being saved from?

Please tell us why sex workers need safety from a profession that is dealing in a normal everyday human activity. I don't need safety whilst shopping for my food, which is necessary on a daily basis for the basics.

Street based sex work and brothel keeping are very different facets of this industry. Decriminalisation is dealing with the latter.

Street based sex work accounts for a very small proportion of all sex work carried out in the UK. I am not sure how or if it can ever be made safe.

Haven't read whole thread sorry, but the select committee which was looking at this was led by Keith vaz.

Who clearly had a vested interest in making sex work more acceptable.

There are people who work with ex-prostitutes who said that the committee totally ignored lots of evidence. I wonder why?

you are totally disingenuous Manhowdy
the reason a few women are able to do well from sex work is tied up with it's taboo status and the fact that most women find that kind of work very very unappealing

if loads of women were to decide that sex with random men was very appealing and a great way to make a living then the price would go right down and it wouldn't seem like such a great opportunity.
How many 'happy hookers' would still do it if it only paid the same as a regular job?

men are prepared to pay a high fee for NSA sex in part because there is a huge supply gap, few women are prepared to offer it and there is a large demand from men

Manhowdy

You think it's safe in brothels and flats and will be safer if legalised.

In Holland and Germany it's legal, and yet STILL not safe, because at some point the woman is going to be left alone with a random strange man who might:

1. pull off a condom when she's not looking
2. become violent and do huge damage before she can cry for help
3. give her an STI the day after the clinic gave her a monthly check up

How do you plan to remove those dangers?

This is a genuine question, and I am keen to hear your answer.

Always moaning that sex work is shunned, but hey it's really lucrative
Newsflash, it pays well because its frowned upon
You are arguing from a very precarious position and you cannot have iit both ways

An odd post Roseanne.

Currently women are being murdered in the UK because they are working alone.

You are saying that because all risks (such as STIs) cannot be eliminated we keep the status quo?

The reality is dangerous men will do what they think they can get away with. Make it more likely for them to get caught, and risk is massively reduced.

I can't quite believe that needs explaining.

And I don't think it should be legalised. I think it should be decriminalised.

Okay, so in the UK prostitution IS ALREADY LEGAL owning and running a brothel isn't, neither is being a pimp.

Do you really think that people who run dreadful brothels care whether they are legal or not?

My point about drug dealers was that they typically have more insight iinto the costs and benefits of their underground position than do sex workers