Obese people to be refused surgery

[ReallyReallyNearly]

Isn't this just another form of discrimination, www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-37265752
Argument seems to be on financial reason rather than health, do we stop nhs services for people who smoke, or those who drink too much etc. Where does one draw a line?!

If they are going to do this they are going to have to find a better tool for measuring obesity than BMI. I'm in the obese category. I exercise for an hour 6 times a week. But I have severe PCOS, large muscle mass and have a large frame - wide and busty. Yet I am put in the same category as a tiny framed person of the same height.
When once I eventually starved myself into a BMI of 24.5 my periods stopped and I looked dreadful and felt awful. I was advised to put on a stone.

I eat usually laround 1000 cals a day and still woouldn't lose more than 1il every few weeks. So all those people who say every fatty deserves it can get tae fuck quite frankly.

I'm overweight because I have lipodema which causes disproportionately large legs. I also have arthritis so basically my knees are fucked. I manage to work with the aid of a stick and painkillers. No amount of dieting will shrink my legs but one of my knees is bone on bone. So I would be a category 3 for ever I guess.

And I'm 60 so should have been retiring now

I also have lipodema in my legs, thankfully mildly. It's shit isn't it? There is nothing you can do and is awful 😔

Shiningexample
Many sports have known consequences, For instance many doctors argue against contact sports.

Mountain biking is a sport where you put yourself in a position to cause extreme injury to yourself.

that the scenarios are not parallel is not in question, that people put themselves in harms way is .

My opinion is that if drug addicts, smokers, drinkers are all given treatment then obese people should be too. It is all self inflicted.
I am speaking from the perspective of being close to someone who has suffered crippling illnesses, both physical and mental, and has eaten as a form of coping. This is no different to an alcoholic or a drug addict. The compulsion to eat, even to subconsciously punish the body for what it can not do is real, terrifying and debilitating.
I would recommend anyone to watch the videos of a youtuber called 'Boogie2988'. He was physically and emotionally abused by his mother throughout his entire childhood and the byproduct of this is his size, and his compulsion to binge eat. He explains it far more succinctly than I ever could.
I think it's very easy to look at a fat person and think how they've done it to themselves, they should sort it out but it's the underlying reasons that never get dealt with, so how can they?
No one should ever be refused treatment, but operations need to be offered I think after rigorous treatment for the causes of the problem in the first place, be it counselling, medication, etc.

I'm semi-double this. As long as it applies to other self-inflicted issues too (which it says it does). If it makes people take more responsibility for their choices that's good, rather than assuming the free NHS will pick everything up.

As long as there is consideration for people on medication that causes weight gain.

Although I worry it's a slippery slope (eg riding a motorbike is dangerous, will they stop treatment if you're injured falling off your bike? What about abseiling? Etc

from the link if you read it in full
The new rules will only apply to elective surgery for non-life threatening conditions.
BMI above 30 would affect recovery.
If people lose weight - they are re-referred - surely that is good enough to get the BMI below 30 for their own health's sake.

Mine has got steadily worse and now is in my arms. It is shit because people just think 'FAT!'
Great hair and lippie and a smile distract people
to you

I think if they are going to do this then they need to offer more support for people with Binge Eating Disorder etc via the NHS. In many areas it is nonexistent.

I see why some people think this is fair but what next?

Making people who "choose" to live in areas with high levels of air pollution pay for asthma treatment?

Perhaps we should make the owners of the factories that CAUSE the pollution pay for their treatment?

I'm on the fence with obesity as it can be caused by a myriad of reasons and say someone with arthritic knees needs them replacing and can't move so gains weight, new knees will help them lose it....

Smoking however. Yes they should fully fund their treatment. I'm sick of seeing people like my fil who is a heavy smoking alcoholic with copd brag about "how great the NHS is look at all the treatment I get for free!" but because he's grossly underweight when he falls and breaks bones (which is frequent) he again gets patched up for free. It's all self inflicted.

I often think people think I'm in a chair because I'm fat, the worst is when people say you are too young to be in that. As if being young would stop a car accident breaking my back, and I also have a genetic condition too. 😡

Oh no How. Didn't know it could go to arms, legs is bad enough. The weight of it is awful. Biggest hugs xxxx 🌹💐🌹💐🌹💐🌹💐

mummy I think that's where my reluctance to use a chair or scooter comes from. Because of my meds and immobility I'm overweight and I don't want people to look at me and go "lazy cow"

The problem with the clinical arguments people are making is that, assuming this reportage is in any way accurate which is a big if, it seems that obese people aren't going to be refused elective procedures, merely be made to wait for a year. Or allowed to have them sooner if they lose 10% of their body weight, which of course may still leave a person obese. It isn't going to mean obese people not having elective procedures, just them having to wait for them. Possibly, of course, making said procedures more risky because of the delay, depending on the condition.

If it were the case that the NHS were going to say, because you're obese and the risks of surgery are greater, the cost/benefit analysis is such that we can't justify doing it until you're at a particular weight, that might be one thing. Although I believe you have to be quite morbidly obese for the risks of dying under anaesthetic or whatever to be significant, we're not talking someone with a 31.3 BMI. But that doesn't appear to be what's happening here, though I should say again I wouldn't assume the reports are accurate.

How about drink drivers who crash - just let them die? what about drivers - well, they know the risks yet still choose to drive. Shall we deny treatment to victims of domestic violence because they chose to stay with their partner? People who contract AIDs through intercourse - they opted to engage without protection fully understanding the risks. Where do you draw the line?

I'm morbidly obese I think (last time I bothered checking anyway). I got this way through eating too much crap food, plain and simple.

I also exercise regularly and don't have any of the health conditions you usually associate with being so overweight (diabetes, joint issues etc).

So as a pp says, if I get injured while out trying to get fit, do I/don't I deserve treatment?

If I do, then what about the argument that weight loss is 80% diet/20% exercise? Surely I'd have been better off sitting indoors not eating, rather than out doing something physical?

Hyacinth I'm not sure that what you say about having to be morbidly obese and anaesthesia risks is entirely accurate. I think about 60% of patients in the obese category have significant blood pressure risk factors which is in itself a huge risk for anaesthesia.

I'm not sure either, and am quite ready to be educated by someone who is. But what you mention seems to be an issue with blood pressure risk factors rather than obesity per se? If 40% of obese people don't have them, and obviously some people who aren't obese do? Obviously obesity is a risk factor for blood pressure problems, but is that relevant to an individual obese person who doesn't have them?

Don't worry guys, 10 years from now (in fact probably a lot less) there will be no NHS if Jeremy Hunt gets his way. Try getting decent, affordable health insurance if you smoke, are overweight or have existing health problems.

This is moralisation (if that is a word) of health care and I deeply disagree with it. For genuine medical reasons, for example is someone is very overweight such that operating would be dangerous, it makes total sense and I presume is already in place. Otherwise, it is too blunt a tool.

There are many reasons people may become overweight, smoke or drink to excess. Genetic factors and medical conditions may also influence how easy / hard it is for an individual to loose weight or correct their addictive behaviour. Why is someone who survives on 3 packets of crisps and a mars bar each day and does no exercise more worthy of medical attention than someone who, for example, eats large portions and works out five times a week? Is it ok to be overweight because you take medication which causes weight gain and cannot stand without pain, but not if you just fancy eating a kebab after six pints every night? How do you tell these patients apart and where do you draw the "worthy vs unworthy" line?

It already happens. Happened to me. I had a bmi of 35 ish when diagnosed with something needing surgery. Bmi was 40 a few years ago. Gp told me from the start that they can be funny about weight. So I asked for help. I had done a nurse led weight management thingy previously which worked until I had two close family bereavement in close succession. I was told they don't do that anymore but do 12 weeks slimming world. 3 appointments later I was told I didn't qualify as I pay for my prescriptions. I finally got op 10 months later after losing 2 1/2 stone. I am still obese but nearer 30 bmi.