To be depressed at the blatant sexism in my office

[DraeneiMage]

Just that really.

He's 19, 5 years younger than me (is that relevant?) been here 3 years less than I have and somehow he's worth more than me.

Must be cause I'm a woman.

I always forget sexism is a thing and then it smacks you in the face.

sigh

[Atenco]

I actually do believe that it is sexism, OP.

Back in the day when it was legal to pay men more for the same job, my mother was in a similar position to you, only she was over 40 and the company felt sure that she couldn't do anything about it. Well she found another job and rose up through the ranks there, being thoroughly appreciated.

Maybe you should think about getting better qualifications on paper, OP.

[phillipp]

As have I at at older age with a relevant degree and experience but 19 year olds have neither of those.

I don't have a degree and was less experienced in the jobs so that's not relevant to me. However I was better at it. And I wanted a better deal, so pushed for it.


The op is right, she isn't willing to challenge it or change it so can't really moan. And it's more likely to be that attitude that has left her in this position that her sex

[MissMargie]

Looks like you need to get some paper qualms, OP

[Ratbagcatbag]

If you feel uncomfortable asking for a payruse can you ask instead for formal qualifications relating to accounting?

For the record, I'm female, there isn't much scope in my role to argue for a payrise but when there has been I have been firm about it and I haven taken every promotion opportunity as a way to showcase myself. As a result I'm on more than £10k more than others of equal grade (male and female) and £7k more than some managers 2-3 grades higher than me. Sometimes you have to sell your own worth. It's been 50/50 whether I have got more than the basic increase or j have argued successfully when moving internally and kept other benefits so rolled up. If I didn't no harm done but they recognised I wanted more so any future discussions were easier to bring up.

You need to think how to frame the conversation. But if you left they'd either have to replace you with a qualified accountant or someone who they could train and send on courses. All of which could be significantly more than giving you an increase. Also look into the fact that you didn't get your annual rise whilst of on maternity I though you should have got it ( I did).
Good luck op.

[IamtheDevilsAvocado]

If he is no more 'Qualified' than you.. Ad you are doing well in a worthwhile role...

What are you waiting for?? Seriously?
Get your big girl pants on and ask!

Stuff any thoughts of 'it's not the done thing'..... The 19nyear old was obviously happy negotiating, or the bosses gave him several thousand more than you as a' starting wage... ...

Women just don't ask..... Men ask 8 times as often as women for increases....

Read this book - it's brilliant!

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002WJM4P6/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

[MatildaOfTuscany]

Speaking as someone whose equal pay claim (and that of several colleagues) is going through the courts right now, I can assure sceptical posters that sex discrimination in pay cases is still alive and kicking, sadly. The law may have been on the statutes since 1972, but in a lot of companies it's more honoured in the breach than the observance.

The negotiation issue is a difficult one too - there have been studies to show that it's a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation. Don't negotiate, and you end up on lower pay than your pushy male colleague. Do negotiate, and you end up marked out as a troublemaker, because exactly the same behaviour that in men is seen as showing a good level of ambition is seen in women as indicating that they're pushy ball-breaking bitches.

You do I think have to negotiate, OP, you can't let the situation go unchallenged. But beware the double whammy (I say this as a pragmatic recommendation - you shouldn't be penalised for being demanding, but what should be the case and what is the case unfortunately are different things), so aim to be calmly assertive. Good luck.

[phillipp]

I don't doubt it happens matilda. But I do doubt that it's right to jump straight to 'my boss is sexist' when the op admits she wouldn't discuss a pay rise.

[Sugarlightly]

My partner at 19 earned more than people older than him (retail manager) because he asked for it and he was good at his job, so they gave him more money.

[Believeitornot]

I'm slightly confused as his job doesn't sound the same as yours so why are you comparing salaries?

Were the pay rises performance related?

[WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid]

Tbh I suspect the fact I was away for a year on maternity leave has something to do with it. I didn't get any salary increases until I returned to work so I just missed out on 2 pay rises

That's not on.

I would ask for a pay rise purely based on this. I used to work for s truly shit company and even they gave me a pay rise when off on May leave.

You need to ask, it can feel a bit awkward but if you feel you are worth more than ask for it.

[FullTimeYummy]

Matilda, I don't think anybody is disputing that sexism exists.

It's the leaping to conclusions without any evidence whatsoever. Two different salaries for different roles, the recipient of the lower salary is female, therefore it's sexism? Correlation is not causation FFS

Spurious claims like the OP's make genuine claims like your more difficult.

If the 19 year old was a woman this thread wouldn't be here

[Stevefromstevenage]

FullTime I really doubt the OPs claim is spurious.I think it is more likely that there is at least some sexism in the reasoning behind a 19 year old male being paid more than her. At the very least there is evidence of the hidden sexism of a society that indoctrinaes the skills for males as ball beakers and those for women as feeling asking for something like a payrise is too confrontational. But my speculation is that there is plenty more sexism inherent in this situation and as the OP suggests the whole thing is built out of blatant sexism whereby the employers values his male employee over his (potentially childbearing) female employees. It happens all the time.

[DraeneiMage]

I just realised in my previous post I said I'd been here 8 years??? I don't know why it said 8 as it was meant to say 5

I'm quite awkward about money, but I have called my boss out before for being sexist. He asked me to make teas and coffees for a meeting of his while our male colleague was already showing the client in the door... He also does things like expects me to put up Christmas decorations or asks me if I'm having my time of the month if I'm in a bad mood... I'm not just assuming my boss is sexist I know he is.

I call him out on his sexism but can't seem to work up the courage to ask for a pay rise? Not sure why. I've always been awkward about money and feel like I need to be grateful to be getting any money at all.

[redexpat]

Op it could be sexism, it could be many things. In your shoes I would

1. Check out ads for sumilar roles to see what other companies pay.
   
2. Check out if you should have been awarded a payrise on maternity leave.
   
3. Read nice girls dont get the corner office, and practice negotiating in the mirror.
   

If you don't ask, you don't get. Generally, men ask, and men get.

[redexpat]

Oh x post.

This is a business contract. Not anything else. You are worth more than this.

In the nicest possible way I want to go all Enid Blyton on you and give you a good shake! Do you think the 19yr old feels grateful for money? NO. He expects it, because he thinks he is wodnerful. You are woderful and should be paid accordingly. Stop beig little miss helpful, you are no longer a child helping the teacher but a a very competant adult who contributes to this company, and thus help generate a profit, a decent amount of which should be shared with you as a result.

[IceRoadDucker]

I've put my CV into one of those analyser things and it tells you your "worth". I have absolutely no idea how accurate it is but it told me my "worth" is 2k less than I'm on at the mo.

I did that, and it told me I was on the right salary. Three months later I was offered a new job for a £15,000 increase. Yes, really, £15k!

The only way you know for sure is by going for interviews. Not an option if there are no jobs available, but most companies need payroll staff...

[FullTimeYummy]

Steve, so all I need to do to demonstrate sexism in my workplace is find a less experienced man who gets paid a few percent more than me?
Regardless of what their role is?
Regardless of what my role is?

Riiight

[AppleSetsSail]

He asks you if it's your time of the month? Fuck me.

You need to get out of there.

[DraeneiMage]

That's the tip of the iceberg Apple. I couldn't say much more without totally outing myself.

I do need a new job, I just can't find one in the same area as I've no bloody qualifications. I'm looking into open university to rectify that.

[BikeGeek]

I think all salaries should be transparent and pay should be decided on how well you do your job not how well you can stake a claim for a payrise. In many cases the two skills do not correlate.

I've never seen a convincing argument for keeping salaries secret.

[RunRabbitRunRabbit]

Why would it be so awfully awkward if you asked for a raise and he said no?

Do you have some serious people pleaser tendencies? Do you get torn up inside if someone is snippy with you?

That said, your boss is obviously a dick from the other stuff you've said. Get yourself some proper book keeping qualifications then leave.

The 19 year old, as you describe him and his role, seems to have a wide range of skills, is very flexible and has good people skills. That's worth good money.

[AppleSetsSail]

I've never seen a convincing argument for keeping salaries secret.

Privacy?

[DraeneiMage]

Probably, RunRabbit.

I get extremely anxious and feel sick and sweaty if someone is snippy or short with me, only ever at work though. As soon as I leave I couldn't give a stuff about 'pleasing people' but at work I'm weirdly sensitive about being shouted at/given into trouble or anything like that. It doesn't happen often here, but if anyone short with me I hang on it for ages and feel really weird about it.

The whole office is very relaxed, everyone is friendly with each other there's only about 10 of us here in the office, I've never really seen this place as a professional office. Everyone swears at each other and it's a mainly male office. I'm 1 of 2 females here, the other girl started long after me and is also on a higher wage than me and does very similar work.

I think it's something I'm going to have to bring up at the next staff review. I really do think my maternity leave had a massive impact on my wage and the fact I was part time before returning to full time. I was often called a 'part timer' and was told my pay increases would start again when I did full time work, which they did.

[DraeneiMage]

When I say 'swears at' I don't mean aggressively, people just swear a lot and three of the guys jokingly tell each other to fuck off a few times a day.

[HeCantBeSerious]

Now that is unlawful.