winding up children then complaining about their response.

[Windingupds]

Ds is 11. He has ASD. Therefore struggles socially and can have a short fuse. We keep any play date type activities short.

So today we met some friends. I am really close to mum but we have differing parenting styles. This has never been a problem before and I know not to tell her children off as it doesn't go down well. That's if anyone tells them - not just me!

We are on a sandy beach and DS is quite happily building by himself some car creation and has 2 cars with him. Friend and I are chatting. Her DDs are playing nearby with a group of other children.

I'll admit neither of us were watching kids like a hawk. I suddenly hear DS screaming and crying and he's really upset and friends DD is coming towards us and says ds hurt her. I asked her why?

Friend says does it matter? I said it doesn't change the fact DS shouldn't have hurt her but he's clearly distressed so I'm wondering what happened to upset him. Ds is walking towards us at this point. Friends DD says nothing and she doesn't know why he did it.

I asked DS why he pushed friends DD. Again friend says does it matter? I repeated what I'd said and then pointed out DS was playing alone and was still where he had been when we looked up to noise so clearly his DD had gone over to him. Her DD said nothing happened.

Ds between sobs tells me she came over and started kicking bits with her feet and it was ruining it. He'd shouted at her to stop and she kicked the whole thing over.

I asked friends DD what she had expected DS to do when she'd just ruined something he'd spent ages building? She just started at me and her friend repeated DS behaviour was out of order. Asked her again and she said she knew it would upset him but he shouted at her.

I said to DS next time someone breaks something or ruins something of his to take a deep breath and tell an adult. Said to friends DD that if you decide to ruin something belonging to someone else you risk them reacting badly. I then said to friend and DS that I was going to take him home as he'd clearly had enough. (Once DS has hit a point he takes ages to calm again).

A few hours later friend started texting me and saying how I should have punished DS, set a consequence in front of her DD so she could see he'd be punished and that she's unsure if we should meet again.

So I text back that her DD made the decision to walk over to what he was doing, made a decision to start using her feet on it and then made a decision to kick it over. Ds pushed her away because of her actions and it meant he didn't get a photo of what he'd made and had to leave early and that was consequence enough. And that I didn't want to meet again if her DD was going to be allowed to treat DS badly and still be treated like the innocent party.

She's since made PA remarks and a drama llama post on FB.

So AIBU to not punish DS further when his behaviour (although unacceptable) was as a reaction to someone else's actions (which were also unacceptable?)

Please be gentle - I will take all advice on board.

I'd reply on her FB "yes, wouldn't it be nice if some parents would teach their children not to deliberately destroy the work of others and to take responsibility for their actions when they have so".

I'll give some background. Her DD was/is! High maintence. Her eldest DD is much more sociable and easy going and I think it was a shock for her that the second one was different! So as well as having lots in common I had an infinity with her because I know what it's like to have the child who needs more input and watching. I think she lost a lot of confidence or didn't have confidence in herself and therefore instead of publically challenging her DD behaviour (which never ended well) she began to ignore it.
There's 8 of us in our large group. Due to some having more children so having larger families, younger kids etc we've automatically paired off into 2's. The other parents also are far less of a wuss! likely to take her DD to task than me.
They'll say things like "friends DD. Everyone was told to stop doing X so I'm not sure why you think that doesn't include you?" Friend always just says "because I don't mind her doing it"
When we are all together there's 20 children so we do make a conscious effort to ensure we aren't annoying other people nearby! This is where the ASD is a benefit to me as a parent - DS will not break a rule

Can you comment on it, something like "you reap what you sow".

The DD or the friend?

I agree Acrossthe, so she wants your poor ds, with ASD humiliated in front of her and her dd, for something her dd started. Sorry op, this would be a major dealbreaker in the friendship, she is no friend. I would not be punishing your ds at all, just have a lovely evening together, watch a film. My dd has ASD and if a friend did that, they would not be my friend anymore. My friends ds 9, who also has ASD would have gone for her dd, so she is lucky your ds did not!

I'd stop meeting up with them for a bit. Her failure to parent would annoy me. YANBU.

YANBU!

I would only see her in the large goup not alone, what a dealbreaker!

I would just stop spending time with her. Especially if there is any chance that you think her DD could deliberately wind up your DS.

My DD2 (now 13) was very much like your DS when she was younger. A few people were horrified when she didn't get punished for slapping her twin sister, but her sister got a bollocking. However, her sister knew that if she tipped up her sand art DD2 would kick off and she'd done it deliberately. Imo it was the same as when the neighbours cat scratched DD1 - she'd been told numerous times that the cat didn't like being petted so when she'd cornered it to pet it and got scratched she got her scratches cleaned and a thorough telling off. Unkind behaviour going unpunished really grates on me.

I'd post something like this on her FB.

Oh sorry, I think yabu. The girl should have had a punishment too, but it came across like you were justifying physical violence, which really had to be a red line. Of course his action was not justified (not like it was self defence or something).

Hmmm her dd shouldn't have behaved like that but we have a rule in this house that if someone does something like that you use your words and failing that tell an adult. If you resort to violence then whatever the other person did is pretty much null and void.
I look at it like this - if someone annoys me at work and ruins my work / causes me to need to redo somethings (usually due to their incompetence) I can't push and shove them. If I did it would be a sackable offence. People can be bloody annoying but violence is never an acceptable way to deal with it. I have 3 primary school dds so winding up happens hourly.
Df should have spoken to her dd but that's her look out, I would expect an 11 yo to be held to account for that kind of reaction.
Having said that it is none of her business and I'd never tell a df how to discipline their dc.

At what point was the OP "justifying physical violence?"

Justifying physical violence? The little girl deliberately messed up op's sons sand art to get a reaction. She got one, and actually if someone at work came up to my desk and started deliberately messing my work up and throwing my papers around I would physically stop them and yell at them.

OP YANBU, your poor DS. I'd give 'friend' a wide berth from now on.

Discipline wouldn't ever be a spectator sport though.

And given I work with sensitive information, the actions of the insane colleague were unprovoked I'm pretty sure HR would be on my side.

I would be tempted to ask on face book what sort of people think it is ok to pick on kids with disabilities.

however, the highground non comment is better. possibly

I think i'd tell her to go fuck herself. But not before i posted on her FB 'ohhh i know exactly what you mean, the same thing happened to us today, we went to the beach with friends and ds (who has asd) was quietly building something and friends dd came over and ruined it, ds pushed her so as punishment he had to leave the beach early. But friend didn't punish her dd at all for spitefully instigating this situation by wrecking something ds spent time on and then to add insult to injury she posted passive aggressive bollocks on FB. I really wish some people would parent their children too. When i say friend, i mean ex-friend of course, because she can now go fuck herself'

Well anyone who knows the Op's friend and her DD will just smile knowingly at her fb malarkey.

OP - you handled it well. And I wouldn't respond on fb but would not see them again either when children around.

As an adult you know how to moderate your emotional responses.

As a 4 year old child with ASAP you are still learning. probably don't really know your own strength either.

Drawing the line solely under physical violence is massively missing the point. Understanding intent is as important to me.

Sorry 11.

your friends DD WAS 11!!!

there really is no excuse

You absolutely are not BU. The only thing I would say is the language of "what did you do?" vs "what happened before that?" May have been a little too 'blamey'. (And look at my hedging there: may, little! I am really really not defending her!) but her reaction just shows that this is not a woman you can spend time together with. Her ideas of fairness and discipline are way out of whack with yours.

Hmm, I don't think you are B completely U (and I say this as a mother of a DS with some SN who resorts to aggression when provoked), but I think there should have been an apology on both sides - friend's DD should have been made to apologise for damaging your DS's work and being unkind, but I think your DS should have apologised for his disproportionate reaction.

I do understand your predicament though, I am frequently in that situation and it makes it even harder as my DS has speech delays so often is provoked and he reacts aggressively, but he can't explain what happened. However, whatever the provocation, his reaction is always disproportionate, so I can't allow his behaviour to go unnoted either, even though the other child started it. Which is irritating, especially when the other child is doing it to get a reaction out of him. But he still needs to understand that resorting to violence doesn't make it better.

But your friend is BVU by not calling her own daughter out on her behaviour either, and the FB thing is just plain petty.

OP, another who thinks you handled it well. DS, 7, has ASD too. I'd probably be cooling the friendship to be honest, as you clearly are not on the same parenting page.

m0therofdragons I don't see any difference between your approach and OPs. We also teach that behaviour, and there is a consequence if DS hurts somebody (like there was for the OP's DS - he had to leave the beach earlier than planned).

YANBU. There is a world of difference between deliberate unkindness, such as your friend's DD displayed, and a reaction that could not be controlled in the moment due to disability. Of course your DS shouldn't have pushed the other child, and it sounds as though he knows that and is remorseful. I certainly would not punish him. However, if I were the mother of the girl, I would be having some very stern words with her about her behaviour.

I think we have all known the "my child can do no wrong" sort of parents. It is rare that their eyes are ever opened IME.

Yanbu at all.

Also, in a school environment where a child with asd has a meltdown or lashes out at someone the school should always look for the reasons and trigger behind it because there will usually be a point where it starts which can be reduced or avoided. The child with asd would not be expected to behave "normally" because the school was unable to support them. In this case it's quite similar actually - her dd was the trigger and your ds responsed. Of course that doesn't mean you don't talk to him about his behaviour as you have done but the dd was absolutely and utterly wrong.