Baby left in car

[MooPointCowsOpinion]

On my way back to our car, My husband noticed a baby in the car parked next to ours. Alone, two front windows were slightly open, he looked about 12 months. We fretted a bit, stayed sat next to him waiting for 10 minutes and no-one came. So I called the police on 101, and they immediately put me through to 999.

The woman arrived back at her car a minute before the police did. I told her I'd called the police, and she couldn't leave her baby like that. She cried and said she was having a shit day and needed to get the item she' bought (big and bulky box, maybe a buggy?) to the car. I hugged her, cried with her, and said I understood but she still can't do that, and then directed the police to her and left.

Was I being a busy body? AIBU to think it's illegal to do that?

[lyraj]

You did the right thing, OP.
I don't know how uncommon it is, but one of the stories I still remember reading about (not too long ago, it was possibly directed from here) was a baby who had accidentally left in the car and died. The woman, a teacher, had forgotten about the baby.

[MackerelOfFact]

Even if the baby wasn't in danger from the heat (which it was...) there are plenty of other reasons not to leave it alone in a car.

Someone could crash into the car, the alarm might go off and scare the baby, someone might steal the car, the baby might stark choking on something... any number of scenarios where you probably wouldn't want your baby locked in an expensive impenetrable metal box out of your view but on display to the general public.

Just because the baby probably wouldn't have died doesn't make it safe. Heatstroke, hyperthermia, brain damage, cramps, dehydration - most people would prefer their baby not to suffer these, no?

[divafever99]

I think you have done the right thing op. There are plenty of times I've needed to collect a large item but have had to wait until I could get someone to sit with the baby. I've never left my dc in the car even if I could see them. I remember on a similar thread somebody pointing out that the children would probably be ok, but what would happen if something happened to the mother while she nipped somewhere, nobody else would know she had left dc in the car.

[FreedomIsInPeril]

How many times can I say it? It depends on the ACTUAL situation. You can't issue a blanket "don't do it". Being taken? Incredibly unlikely even if you left them in the middle of London with the doors unlocked, but outside your village shop in the back of beyond on a monday afternoon? More likely you'll get hit by a meteor while parking.
Choking on a button? Why would they be able to get a button into their mouth to choke on it? Thats where your risk perception comes into it, its loose buttons you worry about there, not where they happen to be. Choking on a button or on sick is more likely in ther cot at night, where you might not look into them for 6 hours plus, not 10 mins in a car.

[SeaEagleFeather]

It sounds like you handled this just right OP. I do think you had to notify the authorities, and I think your compassion actually must have helped a lot.

I've forgotten my baby before .... sheer brain-numbed exhaustion + a stroppy 6 yo to handle. Fortunately someone pointed it out after 1 min. It still kind of horrifies me looking back because I know I dropped the ball.

We also had the interesting experience of having the police called on us 'because we left a 3 year old in the car for half an hour'. The 3 year old was actually 8 and happily playing on a tablet outside the very familiar supermarket where Papa was shopping! Embarassing but whoever called the police did the right thing.

[MunchCrunch01]

don't you think it's always when you're having a bad day, you're bone tired etc that you make the bad decisions though? I know I do. I do feel sorry for the woman, i'm not sure that people with good support networks get themselves into these sorts of pickles.

[Daisygarden]

Extrahotlatte "If the baby is fine, there's really no problem & no need to call the police. If we aren't careful we are going to turn our country into a complete nanny state where we no longer parent our own children."

Well. If the "baby is fine"... this time.

"we no longer parent our own children"... the irony is that prior to that you said: "if the baby looked fine I would have waited for her to return to her car, just to keep an eye on the baby & make sure someone came back to them." So a random passer-by can assume the parenting role until the actual absent parent returns, but you are worried that by OP stepping in, it is leading to a nation of non-parenters?

I say OP's actions were a necessary wake-up call.

[SeaEagleFeather]

freedom are you quite sure that all car deaths from heat have been reported? There's a lot of underreporting goes on from everything to medical drug reactions to DV.

I take the point that people worry far too much and inappropriately, but one of the reasons why so few deaths happen in the UK could be that people are very careful generally about leaving a baby in a hot car. So the deaths aren't happening because of the fuss people make.

Also, the summers are slowly getting hotter. It might be that more babies left in cars will be at risk, unless it's something that people train themselves not to do it.

[Daisygarden]

Freedom There are vast moral, legal and duty of care differences between the two scenarios. As well you know, I'm sure.

Out of interest - you are saying leaving children in cars is OK?

[SeaEagleFeather]

I don't think she / he is. She was saying take a proportionate view of the risk, which is actually very small.

(sorry for putting words in your mouth freedom if I'm mistaken).

[Booboostwo]

Freedom let's take this one by one:

• restricting your sample population to the UK is arbitrary. Even if we accept that no babies have died in the UK in such circumstances, the fact that babies have died in other countries in similar circumstances is relevant.
  
• you mention 'many babies' being left in cars and not being harmed, but make no reference to facts to base this claim.
  
• you compare being left in a car with being in a driven car with adults, when they are clearly not comparable. A moving car will generate some fresh air and, if stuck in traffic, the adults in the car will notice the rise in temperature and do something about it.
  
• you do not mention the obvious comparison with animals left in cars. There are many cases of dogs dying in cars and dogs are similar to babies in that they have limited means of signalling their distress, they struggle to control their temperature in heat and can't get themselves out of trouble if they start suffering.
  
• probability of a risk actualising is, clearly, not the only relevant factor. The severity of the risk and the fact that the decision to risk is taken by the driver, the benefit acrues to the driver (not having to carry the baby) but all harm falls on a third party (the baby) as well as the fact that there are reasonable alternatives make this a very unreasonable risk to take.

[PersianCatLady]

Another thing I just thought of is say the woman honestly only intended to be 10 minutes but she slipped and hurt herself or fainted or anything that meant she didn't get back to the car at all???

[Booboostwo]

BTW I once read a horrific report on parents suffering from a type of memory loss, induced by lack of sleep, which led them to forget their babies/toddlers in the car ( baby due to be dropped off at nursery, parent skips nursery and drives straight to work forgetting baby in the back seat for hours). The post mortem reports made me want to vomit and cannot be reproduced without the strongest warnings.

[badtime]

Freedom, your 'logic' (sorry, LOGIC) is the same as people who choose not to vaccinate their children because the disease is rare. 'Oh, nobody gets measles, so Ptolemy doesn't need to be vaccinated against it'. Then, when enough people have stopped vaccinating, measles comes back.

If, in Britain, babies don't die from being left in cars, how long do you think that would last if people stopped fussing about it and discouraging it? The fact that people are very cautious about leaving babies in cars reduces the chances of something bad happening. If people were less cautious, the chances would increase.

[Italiangreyhound]

I think in this case you did 100% the right thing. You did wait for the parent and it is hot at the moment and it was a baby.

It has happened... ... a baby has died in a hot car in the UK. And I think the temperatures here have been the same as Singapore in recent weeks - so the location is not so much an issue!

It was quite a long time ago but it did happen...

www.independent.co.uk/news/baby-left-in-car-dies-of-sunstroke-1103139.html

Plus cars have been stolen with children inside in the UK.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/man-arrested-after-car-stolen-in-enfield-with-baby-and-young-girl-inside-a7145331.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-205348/Car-stolen-baby-strapped-inside.html

No one is smug.

*Dontyoulovecalpol re "You don't get kidnappers often." I doubt is these car thieves set out to kidnap, necessarily. The set out to steel a car.

But i also know as a society we are very, very worried and my son, who is 5, often wants to stay in the car when I go into our local shop. It is very hard to make safe and yet sensible decisions.

If anyone is interested this article is VERY long and VERY interesting and is probably not what you expect. Worth a dedicated skim read at least...

www.salon.com/2014/06/03/the_day_i_left_my_son_in_the_car/

[Daisygarden]

SeaEagleFeather, Freedom is spending a lot of posts defending leaving a baby/child in a car. Proportionate view of the risk still does not make it as normal a thing to do as a baby sleeping in a cot or travelling in a cot. They are a part of normal life. If it was so comparable, normal and low-risk, why doesn't everyone do it?

[FreedomIsInPeril]

Freedom, your 'logic' (sorry, LOGIC) is the same as people who choose not to vaccinate their children because the disease is rare. 'Oh, nobody gets measles, so Ptolemy doesn't need to be vaccinated against it'. Then, when enough people have stopped vaccinating, measles comes back

Thats an idiotic comparison.

Babies don't die in hot cars not because no-one does it (lots of people do it, just do a search on MN, given how many people admit to it here against the abuse they get, you can extrapolate its actually quite common)but because a)its not hot enough and b) we're talking about leaving them for 10-15 mins max.

If you bothered to read the stories of babies dying in cars in hotter places, they are usually left for hours, not minutes.
Your logic is atrocious and your comparison asinine.

[dizzyfucker]

Even if the AC is off and the windows are illogically closed on a hot day the fast moving car will turnover the air molecules and the process of these bumping against and then moving off the car will cool the surface of the car. As soon as the car stops and the air is still, nothing is stripping the heat away from the surface. A moving car is like a fan or the wind. It cools us down even if the actual temperate is hot. So to say there is no difference between a child in a moving and a parked car is just utter nonsense.
Secondly an adult is close to the child. Driving with no AC and no open window in 20+ degrees can be harmful. We wouldn't do it to ourselves or our children.

[FreedomIsInPeril]

freedom are you quite sure that all car deaths from heat have been reported? There's a lot of underreporting goes on from everything to medical drug reactions to DV

Yes, I'm quite certain it would be in the DAily Mail, given they report the US incidences, they would be all over a UK one.

Can you people really not understand the difference between what you think I'm doing (telling you all to leave babies in cars, great idea!) and what I'm actually doing (using actual facts and sense to understand real relative risks and talk about what actually is likely)? Or do you all get all emotional (poor little baby/evil mother) and forget to think?

[FreedomIsInPeril]

freedom are you quite sure that all car deaths from heat have been reported? There's a lot of underreporting goes on from everything to medical drug reactions to DV

Yes, I'm quite certain it would be in the DAily Mail, given they report the US incidences, they would be all over a UK one.

Can you people really not understand the difference between what you think I'm doing (telling you all to leave babies in cars, great idea!) and what I'm actually doing (using actual facts and sense to understand real relative risks and talk about what actually is likely)? Or do you all get all emotional (poor little baby/evil mother) and forget to think?

[badtime]

But we're not. We're talking about leaving a baby for an unknown length of time. All we know is that it was more than 10 minutes.

And furthermore, do you know how long would be okay to leave a baby for? Do you genuinely think that nobody would ever push it? Leave the baby for 10 minutes this time and it's fine. Leave it for 20 minutes next time, fine. The baby would be okay every time until the time it wasn't.

And it wasn't an idiotic comparison. Your argument is essentially that if something hasn't happened, then it won't happen so you can ignore the possibility, which is the same LOGIC failure.

[BertieBotts]

Someone asked why it's different to leave a baby in a stationary car than to drive around with them in the hot car for an hour.

The difference is air flow and the fact there are other people in the car including at least one adult over 17 (driving). A car isn't airtight and is designed to allow air to move through the car as you drive via vents, even if you have no windows open. Fresh air is only forced through these vents when you are moving. Most of the time if it is hot you will have windows open too. Plus the other people in the car will notice and/or begin to feel unwell if the car reaches an uncomfortable or dangerous level of heat. Babies can't tell you if they are too hot except for screaming. If they are sleeping they might not even wake up to alert you that they feel uncomfortable. Other passengers could also feed water to the baby via a bottle, which it can't do by itself when strapped in.

You know those days when you have to open all the doors to air out the car before you get in? Next time you have one of those just try sitting in it with the windows closed and the engine off and timing how long you can stand it. Time will go very very slowly. Then try timing what seems like a quick run into a shop - it tends to take longer than you think. If you're in a nice air conditioned shop you won't realise how long it feels out in the hot car.

Admittedly when babies die from being left in cars it tends to be because they were unintentionally left, and left for a long time. I don't think that nipping into a shop is likely to cause death. But it's likely to cause a very uncomfortable situation and I don't think it's fair to do so unless it's an emergency.

[Daisygarden]

Cannot believe Freedom is defending the leaving of children and babies in cars.