If it's the Special Needs session at the local splash park and you're not a SN family, would you stay or go?

[Waitrosejunkie1]

What would you do?

[ReluctantCamper]

Before reading this thread I probably would have been in the 'we're here now, we'll be considerate but stay' camp. After reading this thread I would go. Some of the posts have been shameful. If my kids had SN I'd probably be fucking bitter about it. I don't see why people can't be if that's how they feel.

[NeedsAsockamnesty]

Why is it such a big deal to say a person with out an additional need or disability should not use a session intended for the use of those with an additional need or disability unless they are there in a supporting role or as a group with the person with the need?

It's like me saying I want to use the only men's toilet when there is already a man on his way in there but I should get to use it because wahhhhhhhhh what I want matters.

It's a sad world when people can't behave decently unless something is against the law and has actual criminal consiquences

[MiscellaneousAssortment]

Ugh, the sun brings out the worst in some people.

Small rant follows about the crappiness of yesterday:
Yesterday I couldn't get into a disabled loo as some incredibly rude woman decided that the whole of her family should push in front of me, because they were 'in a rush'. Her three teenage sons and miscellaneous adults. And no, no one was disabled, she just said it was hot and the queue was too long, and they wanted to get a table in the restaurant! She gave me evils, the whole time, and stood blocking the door as if I was going to ram my way in! She literally stood starfish style with legs apart and arms stretched across the door frame. It was bonkers! She also talked over my head to my helper, and refused to reply to me, and generally acted like a complete bitch. Thank god there was a 'family loo' that someone let me into. I had to walk a few steps though and leave my scooter out side, which was pretty hair raising, slipping on water and wet loo roll, and it was a lot harder to sort myself out without disabled facilities. No idea why belligerent bitch door block woman didn't use the family toilet. I guess it was more of a kick to take something away from someone else. She had adopted door block position before I arrived by the way. So not provoked by me in any way. Bitch.

And to top off the day, a van had blocked a pavement and the only dropped kerb on that side of the road. It was parked sticking out of a building yard (the yard was empty so it's not like the van was trying to squeeze in), and the man working at the yard stood there and laughed at me asking him to help me. Laughed at me. For being disabled and stuck on a pavement I couldn't get off and was too narrow to turn around. He just stood there sniggering as I asked if he could move the van, then if he could get someone else who could help, snigger snigger sneer. I ended up crying in front of him 'why won't you help me?' Snigger snigger. So humiliated myself in front of a sick bastard who enjoyed being cruel.

People are bastards and I wish both of those twats the worst thing I can imagine, which is having my illness and having to struggle in front of people who seem to get a kick out of being cruel to the disgusting crip.

Sorry, rant over.

I think the splash park need to make an effort to show its time for a 'closed session' and other people need to wind up their time and leave.

It's useless to try and rely on the kindness, or empathy of strangers. People in public places are not all going to be thoughtful and understanding that just occasionally, someone else should come first. And it takes only a very few people to be selfish to drive other, less resilient people away. People who can't just push themselves forwards and be ok whatever the environment, or cope with the casual discrimination and selfishness of others.

Basically, it's very easy to exclude people with special or additional needs. So there needs to be extra rules in place to compensate.

[Owllady]

I do think it's reflective of how far we have to go. I think people are that used to not seeing people with disabilities and then in the last twenty or so years, education, society in general has had to be more inclusive (because of the law ironically) and now people want access to spaces exclusive to those with disabilities, even for two hours in this case. I actually think it's a lack of education or experience regarding those with certain conditions that really can't access mainstream society or education in some way. I've had it said to me many times (even by parents of children with sn) that 'it's a shame' I send my daughter to special school and for her to be 'shut away' but the truth is she can't cope with mainstream inclusion so it's far more inclusive for her to attend a special school who have tiny classes, specialist programs and understand her needs and she still has 'peers' in her class (another misconception that mixing with people of your own ability is somehow not mixing with your peers)

I get a bit sick of this shit tbh, so it's most probably time for me to stay away from threads like this :o it is good to see though that alot of people do understand and have thought about it. Life isn't just about you and I do the same by not locking my 16 yo in the local park and going to read a book whilst she terrorises your small children

[LoreleiGilmoreIsMyBFF]

Oh, OwlLady - I'm completely with you. I actually desperately wanted to get DS into our nearest specialist school, but he was turned down twice for a EHC plan - which was part of the criteria for getting a place. He is due to start at my local mainstream primary in September. Many of the professionals involved in his care have assured me this school has had great success with ASD pupils. My gut feeling? He'll do a term, and then the specialist school will be asked to reconsider a place for him. I'm horribly worried for him in a class of 30, and though I'm sure the school has the absolute best of intentions, I feel most of the focus will be on 'behaviour management' rather than him actually having access to the curriculum. We shall see. Trying to stay positive, but would be much happier knowing he was starting in a school with smaller class sizes and more experience of his needs.

[KatherineMumsnet]

Hi folks,

We are reading over this thread. It takes us a bit of time to do a thorough job, so please bear with us and of course - please report if you think we have missed anything.

While we aren't making any accusations here - we want to make very clear that disablist posts are against Mumsnet's Talk Guidelines. As well as obvious abuse and pejorative language, we take a dim view of posts suggesting that it's wrong to implement measures that enable people with disabilities to live a full life, or which seem to say that service providers shouldn't make reasonable adjustments so that disabled people can use services. As well as being potentially disablist, we think that such posts don't fit with Mumsnet's basic philosophy of support and advice for all parents. If you see any posts that you think we need to take a look at on this basis, do please report them to us.

Our This Is My Child campaign has lots of information about the ways that people can make life a bit easier for disabled people and their carers. Mumsnet's aim is to make parents' lives easier, and we strongly believe that this includes all parents caring for children with disabilities, as well as all parents who have disabilities themselves.

This isn't about limiting valid debate, and of course some people may be posting in genuine ignorance. But where we think posters are refusing to engage sensibly with a debate, or appear to be unwilling to take on board the points that other posters are making, we will take action.

[horizontilting]

After reading this whole thread, that post from HQ comes as a complete relief.

Particularly this:
"we take a dim view of posts suggesting that it's wrong to implement measures that enable people with disabilities to live a full life, or which seem to say that service providers shouldn't make reasonable adjustments so that disabled people can use services"

and this:

"This isn't about limiting valid debate, and of course some people may be posting in genuine ignorance. But where we think posters are refusing to engage sensibly with a debate, or appear to be unwilling to take on board the points that other posters are making, we will take action."

If this is a result from HQ's recent deliberations about how to deal with these issues that crop up again and again on threads about SN then I'm really liking it. Makes me feel oddly better about society as a whole and my son's place in it when the people running a major website put time and thought into addressing this. I hope it has wide-ranging knock-on effects in getting people thinking in these directions.

[Porg]

I'm confused by the deprived thing. I have lived in a few different counties and have seen many deprived kids. They tend to fall into a few categories-

The money poor kids with loving parent/s who don't work. Those kids spent summers in the parks with picnics, in the woods, on the beach etc. There are plenty of free things to do if you are creative. A splash park is a bonus but they can go anytime.

The both parents working/ working single mum but poor kids. Mostly these kids are in the local council playschemes in the holidays where they do loads of activities.

The poor kids with parents who don't work and don't engage with them. They are mainly playing out/in the park etc. often early in the morning till it gets dark. They can go to any splash session.

The other deprived kids are those kids who have sn or are physically less able. These are the kids who only get 2 hours a month.

[MrsHathaway]

Katherine

Awful to hear the experiences pps have had at the hands of wankers.

[WomanActually]

I've RTFT and just wanted to add my voice to those who say they would leave.

No way would I have my dd take a slot in a session for a group of people she is not part of.

If we had travelled a long distance, we would hunt Pokemon hang about in a cafe or something until the session was over, or we would go back another day.

If we had missed the signs and dd had just gotten in, I'd apologise and I'd bring her straight out and do as above.

My dd would not bother anyone, or sit and stare and she would keep herself to herself but even then she would still be brought out and we'd wait around til 7pm or return another day.

I wouldn't use others peoples children as a learning opportunity either, there's a shit load of info online that can be used to educate dc to be aware of the needs of others, there's no need to take up space at a special needs session.

My dd is very much aware that others have needs that she doesn't, that her day to day life is much much much easier than it is for others and that things like disabled car parks, wheelchair spaces on buses, accessible toilets etc are not there for her benefit and that it's wrong to use them, because there's a good chance it would prevent someone who needs to access them from doing so. That sometimes she has to wait because others need x y or z before she does.

I've talked to her from a young age as things arise, often about things we've read on these threads, when we see someone abusing a facility I'll tell her why it's wrong, we talk about things in the news or TV, and she will do little things like push wheelie bins from middle of pavements to the side in case a wheelchair user can't pass and challenges her peers if they use certain words as an insult.

I asked dd this morning what she thinks is the right thing to do if a sn session started/was in progress when she arrived and she said leave, that it's not a session for her so it would be rude to stay. She said it's extremely unfair that the session only enables the children who need the sessions to access the place for two measly hours a month, and that they wouldn't even be allowed that if people who shouldn't be there just stayed anyway. That it must make parents angry when their child's tiny amount of time is taken from them.

Sorry to all the parents and carers on here facing shitty attitudes day after day after day after day.

[Waitrosejunkie1]

Well done WomanActually.

[Waitrosejunkie1]

As I type I'm outside a big branch of M&S. I've just done a bit of late night shopping and watched a shop assistant nearly lose her rag with a customer. He was early 20s, with his mum and dad, and some issues which I strongly suspect were sensory related. (He was wearing very soft loose clothes, slip ons, the cuffs on the bottom of his joggers had been neatly cut, and he was doing some subtle movements which I suspect were stimming. As they walked through the shop he touched everything. He quickly readjusted every t shirt on a rail so that they were slightly off centre, and ran his fingers over all the textures as he walked. The shop assistant went and got her supervisor and kept hissing loudly "look at him, he's pulling everything!" The supervisor radioed to security to get him followed, and the security guard dutifully appeared and stood in front of him. I think he sussed pretty quickly that there was no problem, and turned away but then to my horror, I noticed another couple, who had also clearly overhead the shop assistant, try to "help" by taking photos of him on their phone. I could hear the wife saying "I think I got a good one then." It was surreal. The lad's parents thank God seemed oblivious. The security guard spoke to the couple and said there was no problem and sent them on their way.
But that's the sort of society we live in. If you don't fit, if you're non-standard, if your sensory needs make you look or behave differently, the assumption is generally a negative, intrusive one. I stood there thinking "for fucks sake can't you SEE he's got sensory issues?"
That could easily have been my son. It's terrifying to think that's what could be ahead.

[Luckystar1]

My DS is 21 months and I am pregnant with DC2. As yet I can only assume DS is nt and hope that unborn DC will be also.

I say this, as I just cannot believe that people who have nt children don't look at their children everyday and think 'there but for the grace of God'.

I will love my children regardless, and all of you amazing parents on this thread who face daily obstacles due to the nature of your children's disabilities love your children regardless.

No one looks into the eyes of their beautiful newborn and envisages the life ahead that will face that child if it has SN. Surely everyone must understand this?!

Sorry I'm blathering, I'm very, very pregnant.

[itmustbemyage]

Waitrose
Maybe you could contact M&S and give them feedback on their customer service perhaps they could improve their staff training or at least they could employ decent human beings who have not had an empathy bypass. Amazingly the staff seemed to think it was the customer who had the "problem" perhaps all shops should install more mirrors so that all staff and other customers can take a long hard look at themselves.

[ToadsJustFellFromTheSky]

I have been avoiding this thread but your last post made me cry waitrose 😢.

I am feeling very sensitive today and have had a shit two days (hence why I was avoiding this thread) so maybe that is part of why I am so emotional.

[ToadsJustFellFromTheSky]

I also don't really see what he was doing wrong by touching things. I actually used to do the same thing when I was a child.

[UmbongoUnchained]

I'm a clothes molester and have been suspected of shop lifting a few times!

[ToadsJustFellFromTheSky]

Meant I had a habit of touching things in shops and re-arranging them

[ToadsJustFellFromTheSky]

I'm a clothes molester

[ToadsJustFellFromTheSky]

Is that why it's "wrong"? Because they might suspect you are shoplifting? Surely a shoplifter would be more subtle than that?

[UmbongoUnchained]

Retail staff are trained to report any suspicious behaviour. So seeing me loitering around fingering the satin night gowns probably did look a little odd

[LyndaNotLinda]

Oh that is shit Waitrose

Please get in touch with M&S. They really need to work on staff disability awareness training.

And it kind of goes back to the 'how do you know they weren't disabled' question. While you may not spot my DS has a disability if you saw him fleetingly, you wouldn't have to watch him for long to realise. Retail staff should be trained to spot the signs rather than a blanket 'fingering clothes = thief'

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

Hopefully one day more people will think sn

Exactly. And that is why its so harmful when people keep giving others a hard time for raising the possibility of SN