"I could never send my dcs to grammar school....

[winkywinkola]

...because I think it's unfair on all those children who can't get in because they couldn't afford tutoring for 11+. But I will send them to prep and boarding school."

I was a bit perplexed to hear this from a mum at the school gate. Aibu?

[Yokohamajojo]

Where I live apparently you can not pass the exam without tutoring and that to me seems totally wrong. They are also so incredibly competitive once you are in so I don't think I would put my kids through that! Many people here obsess about secondary school throughout primary

[WorraLiberty]

Well minimal preparation is better than no preparation and there's always the internet too, for parents who want to research with their kids.

I still think that if a kid is bright enough to pass the 11+ then they'll pass it, as long as they've had at least some preparation.

Equally, if a kid is really not that bright then no amount of tutoring is going to help them pass surely?

I thought the problem was that all the tutored kids were passing with higher scores and therefore taking places away from the kids who passed with lower scores.

But if that's not the case, I'm still struggling to understand the problem.

Maybe I need tutoring

[HidingUnderARock]

Grammar schools are politically contentious, and I don't think teaching to the selective school test in state primary would be looked on as a vote-winner in general. Nice for those it advances, but by definition there will be more left behind.

Not that I disagree with you, I just don't think it will happen.
Ofc teaching to test for the sake of having a test is just fine. :p

[Terrifiedandregretful]

I am so glad I grew up in an area without grammar schools. I live in a grammar school area and want to get out before DD hits secondary school. All this stress sounds awful and so unnecessary.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Worra, in our area the GSs have a catchment. There is a pass mark for those in catchment, everyone achieving that gets a place. That always leaves a few 'residual places' for kids who live out of catchment but within reasonable distance, awarded in order of exam score, so those are much more selective. (But the kids who don't get those are in fully comp areas)

[FayaMAMA]

I totally understand what the mum at the school gate means, I think. It's my mother's view.

My mother had the belief that paying for our tutoring to get into grammar schools, as a way of 'getting out of' paying for us to go to private school, was unfair to children whose parents couldn't afford the tutoring/private education. So, by taking her children out of the mix of children trying to get grammar school places, there would be more spaces available for others.

My brother just bought a flat a couple of towns over to get his youngest two children into the grammar schools there. We had a huge argument over how selfish he was to do that, as he would be denying local children places in their local schools. My girls are in pre-prep currently, so are privately educated, just as I was, and their grandparents are paying the fees (just as mine did!). Hopefully one day I'll be able to afford the fees for their children. I don't want to 'exploit' the system, my brother doesn't 'exploit' our parents. We all have our own morals when it comes to how we educate our children, at the end of the day, all any of us want is the best.

[ErrolTheDragon]

I was in the last year of everyone doing the 11+ in my area - the primary schools taught everyone VR etc, afaik 'tutoring' wasn't a thing.

[BertrandRussell]

"thought the problem was that all the tutored kids were passing with higher scores and therefore taking places away from the kids who passed with lower scores"

That is the case. There are only so many places.

[dolkapots]

What does make grammar schools prohibitively expensive is the uniforms which cost twice that of the local comp and nearly meant we had to withdraw our child from their place

^This. I have bought part of the uniforms for two children at grammars before the term has actually ended as there is a 20% discount until the end of July. I have already spent £1000 and I haven't bought school shoes, school bags and a few items of sports equipment which will probably cost another £300. There is no second hand uniform shop and in dd's school there is approx an uptake of 10% on FSM. I have no idea how someone who is really struggling could afford the uniform. The grant I believe is about £100 which wouldn't go far when a twin pack of shirts is £30.

[aliceinwonderland78]

Just throwing my 10 pence in NoFuchsGiven We were lucky enough to be able to use a school consultant when we were going through 'choosing a school craziness'. She also helped with tuition on a very low key level as didn't want to overload. Her website has exam practice papers on it. Google IWSchooling. Hope that helps.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Dolka, that's ridiculous and completely unnecessary as my DDs school proves (and they do have a 2nd hand uniform shop). Maybe the parents need to campaign, organise to run a shop at least (that's often a PTA thing).

[TheCountessofFitzdotterel]

I am really shocked about the uniform thing.
When I was at school I did volunteer work with elderly people and I met several old ladies who told me they had passed the exam for my school back in the 1920s or 30s but couldn't go because they couldn't afford the uniform. So sad to hear this is still happening.
(And I bought dd's uniform for 'excellent local comprehensive' last week and was amazed how cheap it was - blazer plus loads of other stuff came to £70, which is less than you would pay for the blazer alone at some schools I have heard of.)

[BertrandRussell]

"in dd's school there is approx an uptake of 10% on FSM"

That's high for a grammar school.

[MunchCrunch01]

yes countess it's an outrage. My dd's school says it has a huge amount of old uniforms that it can't get anyone to buy at the school fairs (this came up as a mum asked about 2nd hand uniforms), I'm sure that confucious's school is the same but of course you've got to go to the embarrassment of phoning up and asking for it, which not everyone is confident enough to do. It's silly that the schools don't automatically have a uniform swapping scheme.

[dolkapots]

I used to eye roll at people who claimed that grammar was only for the rich, but now I know what they mean. School fund (£1500 in one school and £200 in another) can be staggered due to circumstances (but that requires a meeting with the bursar who goes through bank statements etc) but the uniform is obviously a must and unless you know someone who can pass down stuff if you can't afford it I don't know what you would do? Sport equipment is another major expense at grammars. Hockey stick, hockey boots, athletics skort, athletics shoes etc. My dd isn't even sporty so these will get minimal wear.

[dolkapots]

in dd's school there is approx an uptake of 10% on FSM"

That's high for a grammar school.

It is high, but we are in a county where grammars are selective but non-catchment and the alternative secondary moderns are quite dire. The vast majority of people aspire for grammar school (well the people I know anyway) and the good primary schools all prepare for 11+. 10% is high but on checking the other grammars I would say the mean figure would be around 5%.

[BertrandRussell]

I've had one at a grammar and one at a secondary modern. The difference in uniform costs are astonishing. For example, did wasn't at all sporty, but had to have an eye watering amount of sports kit- probably pushing 200 quid's worth. Ds plays for every team he can get into, but has a cheap PE kit from Tesco for ordinary PE, and the school has team kits which it dishes out and collects in for matches.

[dolkapots]

That is great that the secondary modern that your ds goes to actually does sport. There is no organized sport at secondary moderns here (other than PE) so as well as the academic limitations there isn't even a chance to excel at sport.

[icanteven]

I haven't lived in the UK for very long, but I think that the grammar system is fantastic and gives children and their families choice, especially if their local comp isn't great.

In my city there is a particular secondary school that is unusually good - famous outside the city for being so great, but you'd be lucky to get a house within walking distance of it for much less than £1m. At the very tip of the catchment, there are some houses for much less - "only" £600k - £800k.

We don't live in the catchment for that school, and it is cheaper for us to send our children private than to buy into catchment.

Obv. there are other schools we could send them to, I'm just using house prices in this particular case to illustrate the unfairness of the postcode system, that ghettoises the very rich and the very poor.

[lostindevon]

"Lucky" that half of the fees will be paid for by the mod.....
It has absolutely nothing to do with luck.
Read up on continuation of education allowance, you'll see there's a bit more to it than luck!!
That option is to provide children with stable schooling whilst the military family are moving around.

Luck, I've heard it all now!

[BertrandRussell]

"There is no organized sport at secondary moderns here"

Really? Is that school policy or can they not muster teams?

[MintJulip]

2)They do not have children from "all walks of life"- many have very few if any children on FSM or with SEN for example.
3)There are a lot of private primary schools which focus on passing the 11+ - and make no secret of the fact.


^^ This.

How can dc with SEN or on FSM compete in a primary that wont even mention the 11+ when you have a prep down the roads whose whole existence is to get the dc to pass entrance examss?

Is it any wonder the system is skewed.

Op I get tired of these debates. Until there is a level playing field in state schools we shouldn't condemn parents who want the best education for their dc.

We are not in a grammar area and our local comps are dire and have been for over 20 years. How many excuses, how many years for these schools to step up to the plate? How many lives ruined because of this rubbish?

[Chewbecca]

The Essex grammars don't have NVR and only a tiny bit of fairly common sense VR, embedded into a maths and an English paper. The papers are designed to test the Maths and English curriculum that's taught in all the primary schools. Tutoring can help if course, but the aim is to make it as open as possible to all, not just tutored ones. It still doesn't work for the borderline kids mentioned (i.e. a tutored borderline child would likely pass before a non tutored borderline) but on the whole, this approach is (IMO) an improvement on including unusual content in the 11+.

So, bibbity, round here you do get into grammar school by being good at traditional maths and English.

[MintJulip]

I've had one at a grammar and one at a secondary modern

Jaw dropped at this line from this poster.

Maybe those people should organise second hand uniform sales

[BertrandRussell]

"Jaw dropped at this line from this poster"

Why?