"I could never send my dcs to grammar school....

[winkywinkola]

...because I think it's unfair on all those children who can't get in because they couldn't afford tutoring for 11+. But I will send them to prep and boarding school."

I was a bit perplexed to hear this from a mum at the school gate. Aibu?

[CatherineDeB]

Bertrand rules .

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

I just think it's very likely to be bollocks. I don't really buy it!

Most parents will do what they can in the best interests of their DC. For many middle-class parents this includes looking around for the best education available to them.

I think private tutoring towards gaining a place at grammar school is perfectly reasonable, also if you're up for it going to church for a place at a faith school - which is what we did for 5+ years. Whilst we went it made a positive contribution to our family life and we hope we made a positive contribution to that church community too.

If you have the money maybe you can afford your high principles but a pragmatic choice is a completely reasonable one too IMHO.

[MangoMoon]

I'm tutoring my dcs myself, yes, using books.

The whole point of grammar schools is fir kids who are naturally academically bent and cleverer than average.
By 'tutoring' your children, they are not doing it themselves - the result is skewed because of specific tutoring.
(Past papers are fine, that's just practise, but tutoring is bloody ridiculous).

If your child can't get a high enough score in their own, how are they going to manage as it gets harder?

I got into grammar waaaay back in the 80s - nobody was tutored back then.


And I can afford private education

Well if you can afford it, use it.
Leave the grammar schools for the bright kids whose parents can't afford private.


I'm not sure why any child should do an exam unprepared? Aren't parents supposed to work with their children? Would you not help them revise for their GCSEs? Or is that giving them an unfair advantage too?

Actual lol!!
What are GCSEs for?
To represent the level of knowledge you have.
It's not 'what my mum helped me to do'.
If your otherwise NT 16 yr old is incapable of revising for their own GCSEs without help from mummy, then God help them.

[EverythingWillBeFine]

The angst about tutors is that many people cannot afford them Worra! So poorer children, or children whose parents do not have the time or inclination to home tutor them, are not getting the chance to go to grammar school.

Except that this is true for ANY school.
Children who have parents who are spending time with them to learn and practice, who are their supporters in the school, who give a damm about how they are doing at school, money or not money, will do much better than the others, whatever the system, state/private/grammar.

The difference is that in a grammar school you are more likely to have children whose parents DO care about their education. Same with private schools (And I suspect that is the ONE reason why children there are more succesfull anyway).

It's not a mockery of the system. The same would happen even of there was no grammar school. Children would still get tutored, at home by parents or by a private tutor. It happens all the time around where I live (and we have no grammar school to go to)

[ErrolTheDragon]

Worra - the point about tutoring isn't so much that the tutored kid won't thrive in the GS but that an inherently brighter kid from a less advantaged background won't get that place. 'Advantage' being not just having a paid tutor but also parents who get the practice books etc or just the sort of household where reading is encouraged.

But there are so many inequalities in our schools admissions - I find it hard to blame parents who make the effort to do what's best for their own kids.

[EverythingWillBeFine]

Re GCSE, parents might not help a 16yo revise but they will have heloped them before and will have taught then how to revise and when, might still offer support (so what's your plan for your revisions? How are you getting on? or simply by ensuring that they are going to the CGSE 'workshops' organised by the school during the hols).

So are parents helping a 16yo to revise? Oh YES. But not by sitting next to do and make them do an exercise/correcting them etc...

[bibbitybobbityyhat]

It does make a mockery of the system.

Yes of course children have better chances when their parents are engaged in their education. Yes of course private schools and grammar schools get better results because they have taken the children at 11 who are already set to do really well academically and that's unlikely to change over the course of 5 years at school. Some people act like grammar schools and private schools perform miracles. They simply don't! You don't need to explain any of that to me .

Grammar schools are supposed to be there to educate naturally bright children, whatever their family background. Aren't they?

[ErrolTheDragon]

'Helping your child with gcses' is very much about providing them a calm place to work, ensuring they're well fed and rested (which may mean policing their internet use). Impossible to level that playing field.

[MangoMoon]

Well if she is getting 90% of it all paid for and made that comment then she is probably being a snob.

Look at me, my DC goes private, we dont have to scrabble around trying to pass a test just to get into a Grammar, where they would still have to mix with the unwashed poor.

Did you miss the part where it mentioned they were a forces family? And you only get it funded if you move a lot?

It's the complete opposite of being snobby - tbh.
My niece is at a boarding school now after begging her mum to let her go as she'd just started her 5th school aged 10.

[WorraLiberty]

Yes but surely if a kid from a poor background is that bright, they'll pass the 11+ without tutoring anyway?

Or is it that passing into enough to get them into grammar and it's about who gets the highest scores...ie a tutored kid could score higher so the poorer kid (despite having passed) might not get in?

If that's the case, I can understand the angst.

[WorraLiberty]

passing isn't* enough, not 'into'

[BertrandRussell]

A bright child who is not tutored is probably not going to do as well as a less bright one who is.

And a borderline child who isn't tutored is definitely going to be beaten by a borderline child who is.

[TheCountessofFitzdotterel]

Bertrand, in your Glorious Reign how will you deal with the postcode lottery problem?

[HidingUnderARock]

Op seems a bit hyped.

I imagine this statement wasn't out of the blue, and the topic was being discussed. Perhaps she felt under pressure to have something to say, especially as she is not choosing the same route for her child as you (and likely many others) are choosing for theirs.

Her circs are different, her choices are different. I doubt the Ops title is her only reason for choosing boarding over grammar. Probably it is not the only reason she has given, and this is not the first time the topic (that she is not in on) has come up.

She may have run out of platitudes or patience, especially if the Op's conversation style is similar to her posting style.

[WorraLiberty]

So is it that out of all the kids who pass, only the ones with the very highest scores get in?

In other words is it possible to pass and be told there is no place for the child, because those places were given to kids with higher scores?

[MunchCrunch01]

Even in grammar school-free Scotland people still rent to get into catchment for nicer state schools and then move - personally, I wouldn't judge anyone very harshly for doing whatever they could that's legal to make sure their DC has the best school they can get them into.

[bibbitybobbityyhat]

No, Worra, I don't think you know what the tests consist of (?) I think they are called non verbal reasoning tests (or something like that). My dd was confronted with one at one of the comprehensive secondaries we had applied to and had basically no idea what to do with it.

How to do them is not taught in the state school system but it is in prep school or via private tutoring.

You don't get in to grammar school by writing a great story or doing a traditional maths exam.

[winkywinkola]

Worra, in Bucks, the pass mark is 121.

All kids who get that pass mark are entitled to a gs place.

Sorry if that is a hyped post.

[BertrandRussell]

No, worra, the pass mark is adjusted every year to make sure there are enough places.

[WorraLiberty]

How to do them is not taught in the state school system but it is in prep school or via private tutoring.

Right so surely that's something that needs to change?

How to do the tests should be taught within the state school system, surely? I mean for those who show an interest?

[sue51]

I live in super selective west kent. It would be very hard to get into a grammar here without tutoring . I think the average tutor charges about £20-30 per hour, a difficult sum for a hard up family. A child on fsm attending a Tonbridge grammar would be a rare thing.

[BertrandRussell]

State schools can't offer more than minimal preparation for the test, because that would give the lie to the claim that the test is fair for al and untutorable.

[bibbitybobbityyhat]

I wonder how that works if there is suddenly a freak year when an extra 100 children get a score of 121?

[bibbitybobbityyhat]

No, I think if we are going to have to have grammar schools then their entrance exams/criteria should change.

[BertrandRussell]

I am pretty sure that the pass mark is adjusted to make sure the right number pass in every selective area. I could be wrong, though. It certainly is where I live.