To think not being very good at your job is not a reason to be plastered across the national press

[callherwillow]

teacher struck off

Ok. I get some teachers are rubbish. I understand many people are poor at what they do, and that should be dealt with by earnings, disciplinaries, even dismissals.

But does it really need to be plastered across the press?

[callherwillow]

Bill, we'll have to agree to disagree (first time for everything :)) I agree that in your hypothetical case the teacher should not be permitted to teach but to resort to a public trial is likely to be hugely detrimental to the teachers own family. Please note I am not excusing the behaviour but once the precedent is set it's difficult not to continue with it - so the case you describe might well have some arguments for being made public but other cases don't.

Olenna, I'm not just talking about this teacher. I don't think being a shit teacher excuses smearing someone's name like this anyway but I'm thinking of for example the social workers who failed baby P, who were subject to almost the same level of hatred and public shunning as his mother was. That to me seems wrong. Being shit at your job should have consequences but for most people, those consequences are severe enough with the loss of income, possibly home, status etc.

I do know a local man and this goes back some years as I was friends with his eldest daughter but he was dismissed from his job for what was deemed an inappropriate relationship with a student, which it was, although it was conceded that he'd misguidedly tried to reach out to her in a fatherly sense rather than a sexual one, but the knock on effect on the whole family was awful. The press might claim they report these stories in the interests of children but it wasn't in the interests of his children.

I also remember a senior policewoman being vilified in the press; she did clear her name eventually but not before she'd attempted suicide.

i'm really not, as an earlier poster claimed, an 'unpleasant bully': on the contrary I hate this practice and wondered what others thought, though it seems I'm in something of a minority! :)

[Headofthehive55]

I feel it's wrong too actually. It seems to me children can do no wrong.

So a teenager doesn't know it's wrong to throw a chair across a room? Mostly our behaviour comes from within.

I wonder what will happen in a couple if years when they start work in a factory doing boring work. Will it be the managers fault for not stopping them throwing things around?

It's a wonder we have any teachers.

[Headofthehive55]

I agree with you op - the public humiliation is wrong it's like the ducking stool.
They will be people with families and mortgages, yet they are treated as if they have committed a criminal offence.

[LikeDylanInTheMovies]

Hive no one is excusing the bad behaviour by the young people, but in this instance, it is likely to be exacerbated by her poor classroom management as documented in the report - no interaction/ eye contact and the unengaging nature of the lessons (listening to her read from a novel for three successive lessons without interaction/ copying from the board).

[callherwillow]

Well - I didn't necessarily want the discussion to centre around this particular case and I do not doubt she was an awful teacher.

But by stating that her teaching excacerbate that behaviour, you are excusing it, or providing at least an explanation for it based around poor teaching.

The outcome of poor teaching is - or should be - poor learning, which in turn leads to failed examinations, lesser life chances and so on. Throwing chairs around should always remain the responsibility of pupils.

[LikeDylanInTheMovies]

I agree bad behaviour it is the responsibility of the pupils, but would you realistically expect that a class of teenagers would sit in total silence for three solid hours bored to death whilst they are read at without any opportunities for interaction? It was always likely to lead to acting up

Her teaching skills - or lack of them - led to a situation where disengagement and disorder was more likely.

[callherwillow]

The emphasis then should have been on the loss of learning, dealt with by dismissing the teacher and depriving her of her teaching qualification and let that be that.

[BillSykesDog]

Bad behaviour - and managing it - is a huge part of a teacher's job and training.

[JudyCoolibar]

The findings of disciplinary proceedings in relation to all types of health professionals, and other professionals such as solicitors, barristers and accountants are all published. I don't really see why teachers should be exempt.

[Headofthehive55]

There are lots of reasons why teenagers have to be able to sit, bored without acting up. An airport for example. Waiting for a plane.

I think we have lost something in society when we transferred responsibility to teachers for others behaviour.

A nurse wouldn't be hauled up in front of the regulatory body because their patients failed to take responsibility for themselves. Failed to behave on the ward. Failed to take medicine.

[BillSykesDog]

A teenager sitting in an airport (like everybody else) would be free to walk around the shops, play with their phone or read a magazine. Quite a different scenario to being forced to listen to someone reading in a monotone for hours with all engagement banned. Ditto nursing, when you're in hospital nurses take over responsibility for making sure meds are taken and dosages monitored. In the same way teachers manage behaviour - it is part of their training and part of their job. They have a responsibility to the rest of the class to manage behaviour effectively. If they just throw their hands up and say 'not my responsibility' in the face of bad behaviour they are letting the rest of the class down and not doing their job properly. Being able to manage poor behaviour and maintaining discipline is very much part of being a good teacher. To suggest that it's not is absolutely laughable.

Put it this way. It's highly, highly likely her classes were the only ones deteriorating this badly on a regular basis. Even with the same pupils. Because she is the only one up before a tribunal. So either these uniquely bad pupils transform their personalities by magic when they leave her classroom - or she's just really shit at controlling children that other teachers are capable of managing because she's a shit teacher. I would put my house on it being the latter.

[Fresta]

I really disagree that that this level of violence is part of a teacher's responsibility. It is of course her job to engage the pupils in learning, to discipline pupils for low level bad behaviour like talking when asked to listen, not doing homework, being late, and not following classroom rules in general. But hurling objects like chairs indicates a wider school problem. Pupils don't throw chairs because their lesson is boring!

[splendide]

Doesn't the fact that a single sacking makes the news just highlight that hardly any teachers get sacked?

Also how on earth do you propose stopping it being reported? Do you think they should hold this stuff in secret? Not tell the parents?

[SetPhasersTaeMalkie]

Behaviour management is part of the standard for full registration by the GTCS.

Poor behaviour management in itself could be supported but combined with other factors including an unwillingness to work on feedback given, or implement changes required to improve cannot be ignored.

The public nature of the report is part of the GTCS. This particular teacher has not been singled out for special treatment.

[sorenofthejnaii]

Doesn't the fact that a single sacking makes the news just highlight that hardly any teachers get sacked

Or maybe most teachers who have issues leave before it gets to this stage?

Or are forced out by headteachers?

Or don't have their contracts renewed?

[splendide]

Well any of those things being correct still leave my comment as true don't they Soren?

I really am not saying I think more teachers should be sacked I was just pointing out that it is news because it's unusual not because of an anti teacher sentiment in the press.

[Headofthehive55]

Actually nurses aren't responsible for making sure someone swallows their medicine. Unless they are unconscious!

you have to look at how the school is run - behaviour is rarely the sole responsibility of one teacher. I once worked in a school where I was not allowed to put pupils in detention, time out, not allowed to keep them behind in class, etc whilst smt hid in their own corridor.

That teacher was probably one of the good pupils originally, tried hard, went to uni. It's one thing to not be able to do a job - I do think they should be managed out but in a far kinder way than publicly humiliated. We don't post lists of pupils that fail in exams - we know that is unkind and can affect people's self esteem. I think we have a responsibility to members of society to treat them fairly, and kindly.

[woodvillain]

For me the issue is the reporting in the press and the knock on effects for the individual as well as the school etc. In this case the individual is deemed not fit to teach but that's not a crime!
I don't have a problem with the publication in the GTCS website. I don't think there are many folk trawling that website looking for a juicy story, other than members of the press possibly! In my own school where we had a similar story it was reported in the local press and then was picked up by the nationals. This was a number of years ago but of course Google still brings it up..

[splendide]

I rather agree Woodvillain but there really isn't any way to stop the press reporting. It just has to go down as a risk of teaching, same with doctors and lawyers.

[SetPhasersTaeMalkie]

You cannot teach in Scotland without being registered with the GTCS. In order to be registered you must reach a standard which is laid out very clearly. When teachers are not meeting the standard there are clear guidelines. They should be adhered to and should not vary from school to school or area to area.

[SetPhasersTaeMalkie]

Sorry, cut myself off there. I agree with wood villain that the public nature of the report is brutal for the teacher.

[SetPhasersTaeMalkie]

Brutal for the teacher in this particular case. But it is known that it can happen.

Sorry my pages are jumping about like mad.

[kesstrel]

For what it's worth, there is a different perspective here:

I still haven’t read every part of this case. It is complex and a lot has been written and I am not familiar with the Scottish system. But what I do know is that this year in Scotland, failing to comply with fads from ten or twenty years ago, which have no proven benefit for learning, can be used as evidence that you are not fit to teach.

teachingbattleground.wordpress.com/2016/06/03/in-scotlands-schools-it-is-still-2008/

[Headofthehive55]

We don't have a situation where "hgv driver fails medical" is splashed around the papers. Many peoples driving licenses are removed due to public interest but we don't pick people out to let the public know it happens.

At the awful school where I did supply it was put to me that it was my fault and I quote "nobody else has these problems". I almost believed them, reminded myself about the outstanding and good feedback I had received from previous schools and left. I later found out that this behaviour was rife, other teachers had been told similar. I have never taught since.

[Headofthehive55]

kesstral that is a very interesting read.