To think not being very good at your job is not a reason to be plastered across the national press

[callherwillow]

teacher struck off

Ok. I get some teachers are rubbish. I understand many people are poor at what they do, and that should be dealt with by earnings, disciplinaries, even dismissals.

But does it really need to be plastered across the press?

[NoahVale]

well, they shouldnt google applicants.

Fair enough a DBA or whatever it is called.
but if it is not Relevant to the job in question, kinda crap attitude.

[callherwillow]

It's not just jobs. It's friendships and relationships too.

[NoahVale]

would you look a friend up on google?

[callherwillow]

I've idly stuck names in (including my own!) yes.

[ilovesooty]

I don't Google my friends.

I would certainly Google prospective employees.

[OlennasWimple]

All decisions by the NCTL (who consider teacher disciplinary cases) are made public and remain available online

[ilovesooty]

In fact I've recently been involved in recruiting for a post and I certainly googled the applicants and looked closely at the results for the shortlisted candidates

[woodvillain]

And you wouldn't be the only one either Sooty! We are teaching pupils to be very careful about their online presence precisely because some employers will use google!

[callherwillow]

I know Olenna. I feel it's a rather unpleasant practice as despite insistence to the contrary, it's just a modern version of a public hanging.

[OlennasWimple]

Public servants = public hearings = public outcomes

[callherwillow]

Because it does so much good

[JudyCoolibar]

We don't know that. We only know what the staff have claimed

This seems to come from several members of staff. And it would appear that she doesn't deny it.

[callherwillow]

I accept that (though I have first hand experience of lying schools) but it is still not exactly fair.

[Fresta]

It says more about the school and it's pupils than it does about an individual teacher when children throw chairs because a lesson is is poor. In a school where expectations of behaviour are high, teaching is good and parents are on board and supportive this wouldn't happen because of one sub-standard teacher.

[tinytemper66]

Discipline in schools has been going downhill for many years. I have been in schools where I was called a dwarf, well actually a fucking dwarf and nothing was done despite using the school discipline policy. As someone said further up, some kids dont give a shit and it is usually [but not always exclusively] those kids whose parents are too soft on them or dont care what their kids are doing in school because they see no wrong in their darlings' actions. So you can be the best disciplinarian but if pupils choose to misbehave there is little we as teachers can do about it if support from home isn`t there. Coupled with this is the LAs' policies of not excluding and blaming the schools for not dealing with it effectively. Many schools are on a losing side of a battle or on uneven footing!

[BillSykesDog]

She's gone to teach abroad, Dubai I believe. She doesn't need to be on the British register to teach there.

[OlennasWimple]

Public outcomes also means that when someone has been falsely accused of something (sexual relations with a pupil, for example) their "acquittal" is also there for everyone to see

[callherwillow]

And you think that's a good thing?

It also means the police can find you innocent but a professional body find you guilty.

[OlennasWimple]

I think transparency is usually a good thing.

I don't understand what you mean about the police finding you innocent but a professional body guilty.

Of course a criminal court might acquit but a professional standards body reach a different conclusion, as they operate to very different thresholds.

I meant that where accusations have been made - such as improper conduct - and these have been deemed to be unfounded, it's great that this information is in the public domain. Isn't it? Rather than just playground rumours?

[ilovesooty]

It's great I suppose until there is muttering about "no smoke without fire" even if your professional body has deemed the allegations unfounded.

[callherwillow]

It's the operating to different thresholds that concerns me.

You have done nothing, the police concede they can find no evidence (or it never went to the police because you didn't do anything criminal) yet you still have the shame and embarrassment of your name plastered across the national press. It doesn't just make life hard for you but your children and your spouse.

It's not just teachers. Social workers have such a hard time through this as well.

I am absolutely not saying that there shouldn't be disciplinary proceedings and dismissals; I am questioning the wisdom of putting this information in the public threshold.

[nuttymango]

Until you posted this on MN many people probably hadn't heard about it except those local to the area/people in Scotland.
What on earth have you to gain by drawing this attention to all of MN? You sound like an unpleasant bully who gets pleasure from the discomfort of others.

[callherwillow]

And you've based this opinion on posting a news article that is in the public domain on here? :)

You've been pretty unpleasant yourself. I actually reported this to Mumsnet several hours ago and asked if they'd remove the link as it was upsetting a few waspish souls on here but they haven't done so. Maybe we are all unpleasant bullies, unlike you, sweet soul, who just posts to make kind and supportive comments like the one above.

[BillSykesDog]

And you think that's a good thing? hmm It also means the police can find you innocent but a professional body find you guilty.

Yes, I think that's a good thing. For a start, behaviour doesn't have to be criminal to meet the threshold to make you incompetent to do your job. For example, the police may investigate a claim of rape from a pupil against a teacher. The police may find that there is insufficient evidence to prosecute or even confirm intercourse took place. But a professional panel can look at the case more holistically and see if there was behaviour surrounding the case which feel short of criminal behaviour but made them unfit to practice. For example inappropriate messaging, spending long periods of time alone in hotel rooms with pupils on school trips, buying presents to groom pupils, inviting pupils to his home or giving unaccompanied lifts.

It would be totally appropriate in that situation for a teacher to be struck off. Could you imagine if a teacher with that background went on to do the same again? There would be outrage he was allowed to continue to practice, particularly if it was hushed up.

I am absolutely not saying that there shouldn't be disciplinary proceedings and dismissals; I am questioning the wisdom of putting this information in the public threshold.

One of the problems with these type of highly responsible but public sector jobs is that if you don't make disciplinary procedures public there is no real incentive for panels not to err on the side of allowing poor staff to continue working. Unlike the private sector they are not losing money so the panel doesn't have that incentive. It's also unlikely that the panel have children in their class or parents being cared for by them or are at danger of being flung in the cells by them. The only real incentive they have to make a fair decision is the public scrutiny that decision will have and therefore the need to make sure the decision will stand up to that scrutiny. It's checks and balances, and will sometimes work out in the favour of the person on the receiving end as the scrutiny will protect them from harsh arbitrary decisions too.

[OlennasWimple]

ilove - I can't think of any quasi-judicial system that can avoid those sorts of mutterings

OP - I think we need to remember that this isn't just a teacher who isn't very good and needs some help to get back on track or support to leave the profession. This is someone whose behaviour was so awful that she brought the profession into disrepute and has been barred from teaching again.

An apology, though: I'd missed that the teacher was in Scotland (she is an English teacher though!), so it's not the NCTL who considered her case but the GTCS