to be cross that dd is repeatedly hurt under cm care

[wheresthel1ght]

Dd's cm is lovely. She is very sweet, buys the kids birthday/Christmas/Easter etc and is brilliant with endless activities, days out, toddler groups, parks, play enter, city farms etc.

However, yet again I have had to sign the incident book tonight because the same little girl has again hurt dd. This child is about 5 months younger than dd, a lot less verbal but seems to have real problems with sharing. Dd has an inch long scar by her eye where this child scratched her because dd had the toy she wanted, she has hit her, kicked her and other general toddler stuff. I have overlooked all of it and shrugged it off as kids being kids.

Tonight however I have collected dd and had to sign again because this other little girl has bitten dd. This happened about 1230, I collected dd at 230 and it was still bright red, as if just done, so it must have been one hell of a bite. In this instance the cm told me dd had wanted the toy that the other girl had and tried to snatch it, rather than say no the other girl has bitten dd. This is the first time cm has said that dd's actions have caused he response. Normally she is completely faultless which is a surprise cos she can be a swine at home

I know cm cannot watch every last second and I have told dd off for snatching but I am starting to get really cross that dd is being hurt. The scar is very noticeable and dd is still upset by it as she will see it in the mirror and get upset saying "X scratched me mummy"

Wibu to explain to the cm at I am getting quite cross about this behaviour from the other girl and that if something isn't resolved I will have to look for alternative childcare?

[longdiling]

Nope Lacontessa, it's absolutely not about convention and how it was said. I would be fine with a parent badly stating 'i am not happy with this situation, if it continues I may have to give notice '. I would not be happy with being asked/suggested /insinuated that I should be giving another family notice. My customers absolutely have the right to vote with their feet, they don't have the right to dictate how I deal with other families in my setting.

All that said I do genuinely sympathise with the op and agree that the childminder needs to take clear steps to deal with the situation. I really hope it's resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

[LaContessaDiPlump]

It's the elephant in the room though longdiling - surely everyone knows that's the other possibility for resolving the issue? To my mind the op just vocalised it - she detailed the two most likely courses of action from here and left the cm to choose.

Mind you I'm not surprised to find others see it differently as I can be a bit odd with social interaction. I'll bear your viewpoint in mind so as to reduce the chances of me offending people in future!

[Floralnomad]

My eldest but a little girl at nursery , he was about 2 but was non verbal ,she was slightly younger - I was mortified ,he'd never bitten before and fortunately never bit again but the nursery were very good and implemented a plan where he was kept a closer watch on for a while . I'm afraid if I were a CM and you'd given me that ultimatum I'd be giving you notice this afternoon ,your cm doesn't sound short of clients and I'd rather have parents who wanted to work with me to resolve issues rather than those who issue ultimatums .

[my2bundles]

I also don't quite understand the horror at the photo of the scratch. Most children get similar a few times during their time in n childcare. The scratch really dosent look that bad to be honest, not enough to get so angry. My son got a big scratch to his forehead in nursery, I understood the situation with another child and let it go. These incidents happen in childcare and as long as the childcare provider is providing a good level of care and dealing with the situation you need to expect some incidents within this age group.

[toomanyeggs]

Well actually, as a child-minder, she or someone SHOULD be watching the children, because that it what you pay her for!!!

I can't even say something to the parents The child-minder should do this. It isn't up to you to confront her parents.

I would tell the CM that she either prevents it happening again, or either this little girl, or your little girl will need to go elsewhere

but if someone issued me with that kind of ultimatum I would probably just give notice I'm afraid I think some child-minders would do well to remember that they are employed by parents, and therefore parents DO have a right to ask for stronger methods to be put in place to prevent injury on a regular basis.

[WaspsandBeesSting]

I think some child-minders would do well to remember that they are employed by parents

Bit PA.

It also works both ways. The CM DO also have a right to serve notice to parents too.

[toomanyeggs]

Yes, of course they do. But they should expect to be held accountable for things like this, and not shrug, or giggle it off, regardless of whether it's happen twice in three weeks, or twice in one day!

[wheresthel1ght]

There are other instances daily but they are more general tussles. But 2 severe instances in such close timeframes is imho too many.

I haven't said her kid or mine I have said I don't want it to be a case of that but if it happens again I will have to look elsewhere

[BarbarianMum]

Really, toomany ? And what "stronger methods" do you think a childminder should use on a just 2 year old. Smacking? Crating? Full body restraints?

Stuff like this - it isn't nice but it happens. You can watch them, you can make sure that they're never left alone together, you can try and spot triggers, you can reprimand and maybe even use time out. But you can't guarantee it won't happen again and it can happen in any childcare setting where more than 1 young child is together. How many nurseries or childminders do you think you could find that will guarantee that it couldn't happen on their watch - no matter how much you pay them?

[my2bundles]

As long as you realise that these incidents occur in every child care setting at some point.

[JugglingBabies]

Tough one. I'm a CM myself & a parent to two small kids. I can see both sides.

I did have one child (approx 2 yes old) who consistently bit, hit and kicked my own daughter (same age at the time). Despite my management of his behaviour in my setting, the parents weren't following up at their end at all! I ended up giving them notice fairly quickly anyway.

You should just be honest with your CM. Especially if you have a good relationship. I can't see why on earth she would give you notice, just for bringing the issue to her attention? Not sure why people are saying that! Doesn't sound at all like the sort of relationship you both have.

Hope you had the conversation recorded? It should be logged in her file..

[wheresthel1ght]

I will be logging it yeah.

It want said in any way in a confrontational manner just a "I don't want it to get to it being me saying either she has to go or I have to take dd elsewhere" kind of a way iyswim

I think as long as X's parents take it seriously and help their dd learn how to better manage her frustration and work with our cm (she is genuinely fab and will happily help them out with any thing) then it shouldn't come to that.

It is just devastating as a mum to see my dd hurt and upset. The scratch that has left a scar was really deep, even 3 weeks later she starts to cry when she sees it in the mirror and say "mummy X hurt me" and ask why she did it.

Yes I am completely pfb about it and won't apologise for that. But as others have said, I am paying my cm 75% of my wages to take care of dd and while I will shrug off silly tussles I will not accept physical violence towards my dd.

Take it away from 2 year olds and if someone smacked you or bit you at work for using the photocopier when you wanted to, would you shrug it off as "just one of those thing"?

[longdiling]

Hell no, toomanyeggs, I am NOT employed by the parents. I am SELF employed. So I don't have a subservient relationship with my 'masters' where I have to just do as I'm told whilst tugging my forelock. Therefore parents can expect a professional service and for me to take their concerns seriously. For me to work with them on any issues and to take the best possible care of their children. They cannot expect me to give notice to another child under their say so.

[WaspsandBeesSting]

I can't see why on earth she would give you notice, just for bringing the issue to her attention? Not sure why people are saying that!

Because the op said (paraphrasing) that basically if it wasn't sorted then with the other DC will have to go or she would.

[BarbarianMum]

"Take it away from 2 year olds" but you can't can you? I wouldn't accept my mum controlling my diet or stop me walking down the road myself or leaving me with a childminder all day - I'm a grown up. You seriously want toddlers to have to conform to the same rules as adults?

[JugglingBabies]

You're totally in the right to speak to her. It's a sad fact, but she may just be sort of used to seeing kids bicker, as others have previously commented. And this might be the kick up the bum she needs to reassess the situation and how she's dealing with it! Good for you for doing it, it's not an easy thing to do face to face.

I would also want to know that the situation has been discussed with the biter's parents. And what their response was.

Ask to sit down and thoroughly discuss her discipline policy etc. Just to make sure she really is doing all the things she should be to limit this type of behaviour/contact.

[toomanyeggs]

Where did I mention physical punishment? Stop putting words in my mouth.

And when parents pay you when you are not looking after their children, (when you are on holiday, they are on holiday) hell YES, they ARE employing you!

[JugglingBabies]

Completely disagree toomanyeggs. I am a self employed person. I am NOT employed by any one parent/family. I provide a service, for a fee. Not that it's even relevant to the post.

[longdiling]

Nope, not the definition of employment at all. Look it up. You're wrong. (Not that I have ever had paid holidays as a childminder.)

[my2bundles]

2 year olds don't understand what physical violence is, they hit out when frustrated because they are only just learning how to interact with others, you're u cannot t compare this to adult behaviour. Like I said before toddlers go thro phases, if yours hasn't yet I can almost guarantee she will at some point, maybe a little understanding of toddler development wouldn't go amiss on your part as pretty soon the shoe could be on the other foot.

[waterrat]

I think this is normal 2 year old behaviour and part and parcel of life

[TheOddity]

The toddlers are just doing what toddlers do, but the numbers are limited at childminders exactly so these incidents can be prevented on the whole. If she watches them closely, these things shouldn't happen regularly. They should be pulled apart when the arguments start, not at the biting stage.

[my2bundles]

Oddity frustrated toddlers often miss out the agument and go straight for hitting, biting etc, it's really not that simple.

[TheOddity]

Of course I know there isn't much build up, but these biting phases are petty short normally. If you are sat next to them, you should be able able to stop it on the whole, and if you can't be right next to them, they need to be at opposite spends of the room, or one in a high chair etc out of harm's way. It won't stop every little incident but a bad scratch like that and a bite like that in three weeks plus other little things would be at the higher end of incidents I'd say. In a year of mine going to a childminder with other 'bitey' toddlers there were only two such incidents and they were less severe than that! Remember these are just the times are mark was left!

[Devilishpyjamas]

I am not a childminder but 2 of my children have been to chilminders. Childminders are NOT employed by parents. They offer a service.

If it was me and someone said 'another incident & my kid is out' (when the incidents had been two in 3 weeks of normal toddler stuff - even biting is normal for toddlers) then I'd be minded to serve notice to the complainer I think. I'd find the stess of having to ensure normal behaviour NEVER happened all too stressful. Far more stessful than dealing with biting anyway. I would be quite happy to explain how I planned to deal with it but if a client threatened to remove their child if their child was touched again I'd say I could not guarantee that and serve notice.

As I said earlier I have years of experience of dealing with challenging behaviours & to compare toddlers to an adult being bitten at the photocopier is bonkers. It's not the same at all.

I also doubt there's much the parents can do about it at home. At this age & level of understanding it has to be dealt with in the moment. If the biter is an only child chances are the parents have never seen their child deliver a bite anyway.