Does your cleaner work on bank holidays?

[HormonalHeap]

Just wondered what was normal. Mine has only just started (not through agency if that makes any difference), and has asked for this Friday, Saturday and Monday off as its a bank hol weekend. That will cost me £150.

Want to be fair but she's only been with us for two weeks. What's fair?

[IceMaiden73]

I think you need to read this as it certainly sounds like she is an employee www.gov.uk/employment-status/selfemployed-contractor

As someone else said, as well as normal employee issues there is also the pension issue too

[Figmentofmyimagination]

Someone working 20 hours for you is likely to be your direct employee, with the rights of a direct employee pro rated to her hours, including 28 days holiday a year. These days needn't include bank holidays though, unless you have agreed this expressly. And you should be paying tax and national insurance.

[SylviaWrath]

You really shouldn't be employing anyone at all if you don't know the most basic things about doing so!

[SlimCheesy]

My cleaner would usually come Monday but does not as it is the BH. We pay her though, but that is our choice. She is absolutely fantastic...... reliable, amazing, discreet. She is like gold to me, so I pay no matter what- if she is on holiday, sick etc (she is self employed) because I would be lost without her. Worth every penny.

[DanglyEarOrnaments]

Balletgirlmum I don"t think OP would need to go as far as to put out the job to tender but it would indeed be a good idea for the cleaner to submit her formal quote for the scope of the work agreed, plus let OP have a copy of her terms of payment and she could also submit an agreement/contract with her terms and conditions within which OP can then sign. If she could let you have a service list of all the items she includes within the scope of her service that would be a big help too to show that she is selling you her services (ie self-employed style and you are not dictating how she runs the service (ie employer style).

If you have that from her then it would prove she was a self-employed independent contractor and you were a client rather than an employer. It would cover your ass if it came to it.

You can work for someone for 20 hours on a self-employed basis as long as you take other clients as well and are operating correctly as a business. You are denfinitely not employed in those circumstances.

If the person cleaning sets out their terms and conditions of trading with you and sets the rate of payment for their services and their payment terms (as is the norm with cleaning) then they are not your employee and you can rest easy that they are responsible for all tax and deductions and you then don't need to worry re holiday pay and other statutory rights etc.

[HormonalHeap]

Sylvia I didn't know I had to be an employment expert to have a cleaner, we have never needed as much as 20 hrs in the past so it wasn't an issue but have recently moved so things have changed.

Thank you everyone else for you advice. I guess she is self employed and I will ask her for a contract. She has another job with no written agreement but under 20 hrs.

SlimCheesy you're so right, good cleaners are few and far between, but to pay her when SHE goes away.. not many people do that!

[Nepotism]

You sound lovely, can I have the job instead?

[iMatter]

Just ask her for an invoice every week.

You can still pay her in cash but the invoice gives you comfort.

She is self employed. And taking the piss.

You pay her when she works. Not when she doesn't.

You need to clamp down on this now or else you'll be paying her to fart.

[HormonalHeap]

Will do- thanks iMatter. Will explain to her tomorrow this bank hol is a one off and she gets paid for the days she works.

[Pico2]

On what basis do you guess that she is self employed? Having another job isn't enough. Have you done the online checker thing? Getting invoices from her wouldn't protect you if HMRC decide that she is an employee. The risks are significant.

[SylviaWrath]

Sylvia I didn't know I had to be an employment expert to have a cleaner, we have never needed as much as 20 hrs in the past so it wasn't an issue but have recently moved so things have changed

Since when did you have to be an emplyment expert to know the difference between an employee and self employed? you haven't the first notion...

[DanglyEarOrnaments]

I think that invoices from her and a contract oran agreement signed by both parties would secure her status as self-employed in the eyes of HMRC - as long as she is registered with them to pay her income tax (if she isn't, impress upon her the importance of doing this asap for your sake!)

People do not realise the importance of making sure their cleaner is tax registered and insured, I'm always being accused of banging on about these issues but I am trying to protect people from ignorance. I have been in the cleaning industry for almost 20 years and heard of some terrible things happen to clients via hiring 'cash in hand' types before us - and YES we do take cash and NO we are not 'cash in hand' because we take cash sometimes.

When I say 'avoid cash-in-hand' types I do not mean those who offer other payment terms too but will allow you to pay in cash instead if you like. They will be registered, I mean the ones clearly and deliberately slipping under the tax radar. Yes I will clutch my pearls at that because I've heard first hand of all the significant risk attached to hiring these types, and just because risking it has worked out for one person down the road does not mean you will be so lucky.

Just hire proper legit cleaners people for your own security! Also, note -just because they have a website does not mean they are paying tax, (or insured) if they ASK for cash with no alternative payment method offered then it's shady, that is a real indicator.

[diamonte68]

This might be a silly question but is she expecting to be paid? I only ask as when I have had independent cleaners i.e. not from an agency or cleaning company before and they have taken days off I have never paid them. Generally speaking I pay them for the work they have done and would never even consider paying them if they didn't turn up - either due to holidays or illness etc. Of course I would expect them to tell me they weren't going to be able to work on those days but it wouldn't even cross my mind to pay them for not working.

I am also self employed and charge a day rate to my clients (usually banks/major financial institutions) but only charge for days that I have actually worked. I sometimes have to work on Bank Holidays and occasional weekends and obviously charge them for that, however, when I take a holiday or am off sick I do not charge them - even for clients I have worked for for over 2 years. I see it as no different to a window cleaner/gardener/builder/decorator etc. if they don't actually do any work for me I am not going to pay them.

The time that you will be away in the summer is probably a bit different, on the rare occasion that I have had to ask my cleaner not to work I have still paid them, as it is not their fault, if I was going to be away for a full month and not need my cleaner I would consider paying them 50% for that time just to retain them but my cleaners have keys and sadly I am highly unlikely to ever be lucky enough to have a 4 week holiday

[HormonalHeap]

Thank you DanglyEar and diamonte, yes she asked to be paid. She's coming this morning and armed with my new knowledge I'm going to have a conversation with her, not easy as her English isn't brilliant.

[TestingTestingWonTooFree]

I don't pay for days the cleaner works. I'd be giving yours notice now that you won't require her services for August. I'm happy for mine to have a key so I'd have her in the week before you return.

[clam]

20 HOURS A WEEK?????????

[shinynewusername]

It's an office.

[DanglyEarOrnaments]

I am a bit at the cleaner for both asking for cash payments for her own benefit AND charging you for her time off - it's just weird and cheeky and her getting all her own way in every direction whilst you are at risk of future problems!

I would be firm she either has it her way and sneaks around unregistered and you all hush (risky) and she stops charging for no visit OR she registers to pay tax and you decide between you what is fair terms for non-visits - I would suggest when SHE cancels you don't pay but when YOU cancel you usually don't pay but i do suggest she gets some payment during your long holiday, the first visit could be to clean as normal after you've gone then another for deeper cleaning jobs while you are away then she only gets two visits cancelled, if that makes sense? I would offer that to her in order to retain her services while you are away but not when she cancels you - that's just not on!

[harshbuttrue1980]

I haven't rtft, but I assume that cleaners have bank holidays off to spend time with their families like most other working people?? Workers in banks, post offices, most shops, offices etc all get the time off, so why not cleaners? They are human beings like everyone else and need time to recharge like the rest of us.

[DanglyEarOrnaments]

harsh - yes they are but the reason they charge higher rates than all of the above is because they are SELF-EMPLOYED ie running a business with all associated costs attached!

I am a cleaner/cleaning business owner with a mid-sized company - we treat our staff like gold dust as cleaners are very difficult to find as either employees (in our case) or as self-employed service providers in the case of the OP and while in almost every case under the sun I would be in support of anyone working within the cleaning industry this person is not playing fair with the OP.

She wanted cash in her hand - putting the OP at all sorts of risk with HMRC and therefore is unlikely to be insured to protect OP. She is charging the OP for times she will not be cleaning which is NOT how cleaning business owners usually operate (bearing in mind I have been trading within this industry for 19 years now and am now on the panel of a cleaning business owner trade association, therefore in a position to advise cleaning start-ups on how to trade professionally and with the customers' best interests at heart and charge accordingly!)

In a nutshell - cleaners command these high rates due to demand for their services AND because they must to cover all business related costs. It seems this cleaner is NOT running a legitimate business and is working 'under the table' which would make ALL of her income go straight into her back pocket instead of spending some of such on protecting the OP and other customers as a legally operated business would do and on top of that, she wants the OP to pay for her time off!

It beggars belief!

[Balletgirlmum]

Most other working people? Lots & lots of people work on bank holidays.

Self employed people quote for work & bill their clients for a job done. Employed people get paid holidays. There are pros & cons to both ways.

My office uses a cleaning firm - it's run by two ladies who quoted for X hours per week. We are closed today so they came yesterday instead & in fact they are going on holiday next week so they won't be charging us.

If however they employed an extra cleaner to build their business then they would have to pay them holiday pay & make sure their charges covered their overheads.

[GhoulWithADragonTattoo]

Who sets the cleaners hours OP?

[DanglyEarOrnaments]

In most cases a cleaning service provider will suggest how many hours they think the the work specified by the potential client will take them to complete and if that amount of time is not affordable to the client, they can rethink the scope of the work together to better suit the budget available for cleaning.

In this way both the service provider and the client set out the hours required together to make the plan. The hours agreed upon are then ordered by the client and this work order is added to the cleaner's schedule to fit in with her other clients work orders.

It's not usually a case of setting hours it's a case of ordering work from a service provider.

In our case we don't charge by the hour but charge a rate per home clened so we work to our own variable schedule for each client and complete each job to satisfaction, but even with 'hourly rate' service providers they fulfilling a business transaction if all is done correctly and above board hours are agreed together and not dictated by either party. Obviously if a client started dictating hours to the cleaner they would be acting as an employer but this is not the way the industry works this would be in nobody's best interests. Cleaners are always self employed unless they work for a cleaning company of course. I don't know anyone who would want to bother running a payroll for a cleaner themselves. This is one of the reasons clients use companies like us or agencies, so that someone else takes care of these issues but a solo cleaner really should also be set up as a business and then it's all a none-issue.

[giraffesCantReachTheirToes]

Mine wants to work on Mon...at 9am and I have to let her know if I am ok with that.

I am reluctant to get up at that time!

[HormonalHeap]

I have only known this cleaner a couple of weeks so still really a stranger, there's no way I would consider giving her a key to our home whilst we were away. Having said that, she relies on the cash she gets from this job so I don't think it would be fair not to pay her anything for that length of time. I know I don't have to but I'd probably give her half unless I wanted to lose her.

I had a chat with her this morning explaining the different employment options. I'm not entirely sure she understood everything I said. She didn't look very impressed and told me she has a friend cleaning close by who has been with her family 5 years, gets cash and still gets "time off". I told her this was very unusual. I'm not sure whether she's trying it on or she genuinely doesn't understand.

DanglyEar with regards to her hours, I simply told her how many hours the house needs and she confirmed she was available.