So there's apparently not an NHS anymore?

[MattDillonsPants]

www.independent.co.uk/voices/terrifyingly-according-to-the-world-health-organisation-definition-the-uk-no-longer-has-a-nhs-a6923126.html

Is it so? ;(

[Believeitornot]

Calling GPs private sector is quite hilarious because they're pretty much funded by the taxpayer.

Also whoever mentioned the railways - are you a regular commuter? I am and they are absolutely dreadful. Privatisation right there ain't working. Late trains, most days, disgusting falling apart trains.

And let us remember re PFI that the Tories introduced it and labour the fucking idiots ran with it because the NHS needed massive investment after being run into the ground by the previous thatcher/major government.

The same will happen again. The tories make massive cuts, they fail to invest for the long term and as a result it needs money pumped back in. And that point usually comes when voters are pissed off with the tories and finally vote them out! The labour spend to try and make it right.

If the tories had proper financial sense, they would have proper infrastructure investment. Not big "willy waving" projects like cross rail. But proper long term investment in schools, hospitals, local transport - to lift local economies and therefore make things prosperous locally.

However they won't.

[caroldecker]

Believeitornot GP's are self employed private sector people who run their own business, employ their own staff and provide services to the public for which they are paid by the NHS - exactly the same as other private providers of services to the NHS that people on this thread appear to think is the worst way ever to provide these services,and is the end of the NHS. Despite it going on since the beginning.

[GirlsTimesThree]

caroldecker GPs are self employed, often own their own surgeries and are given funding to provide services and pay salaries for themselves and their staff. They are not trying to make profits for shareholders. If they want to give up, they sell their share of the practice , unlike Circle, who decided that Hinchingbrooke hospital was too unprofitable (and was criticised for being inadquate by the CQC), so just handed the keys back to the NHS.

Drug companies do have the NHS over a barrel because we need to buy their products and until those products come off patent, we have no choice of where we buy them from. Similarly with equipment. Procurement has long been a problem, that is recognised and should serve as a warning against further privatisation.

[Peaceandloveeveryone]

My business does contracts to local councils, so it's pretty much funded by the tax payer, it's still a private business.

[BeaufortBelle]

I did complain to the CCG. Having spoken to a very unhelpful Primary Mental Health Worker (whatever that means) who was extremely disorganised, her boss who didn't appear to give a damn, and PALS who were not at all switched on. Funnily enough the commissioner at the CCG offered one to one CBT sessions with a properly qualified psychologist - within a day or two of me confirming that I had an appointment to see our local MP. Funny that!

DD was initially offered an intervention after a 13 week wait (she had declared feeling suicidal) that would have totally disrupted school, which was not confidential and which was not to be delivered by a qualified clinical psychologist (a nurse and a social worker).

I declined on the basis that we could afford and had by then found a psychiatrist for her and I was not prepared morally to prevent another child from receiving essential care. But if CAMHS is a mess nationally then there has to be a better system to help people secure that private care. Telling people to find it for themselves off the internet is totally unacceptable. Telling people they can't make recommendations because they don't know private practitioners' outcomes is absurd. I don't know outcomes and I don't have any specialist knowledge. Also are they saying that nobody employed by CAMHS practices privately in that case?

I wouldn't find a builder off the internet without a recommendation; I certainly wouldn't seek psychiatric care for my child off the internet.

I have never dealt with a lazier, more uncaring, disorganised bunch of individuals in my entire life and I don't think any of the half dozen I spoke to were intellectually or professionally competent to provide my daughter's care. It was a complete disgrace.

[Believeitornot]

GPs are not the same as proper private sector organisations. They're regulated by the state, they are trained by the state and they're funded by the state. There are plenty of "private sector" companies which are wholly funded by the government so in substance they're public sector.

Not the same as, say, Virgin providing healthcare services.

[GirlsTimesThree]

BeaufortBelle You're absolutely right. Of course your DD should have had appropriate care, but it's the funding which has been cut, not the fault of the individuals involved, although I think everyone acknowledges there are some who are less than brilliant.
One of the reasons my DH (not camhs) was considering leaving was because the trust was trying to replace a few consultants with many HCAs, reduce the number of qualified nurses to unsafe levels and any number of other ridiculous changes all to fit with the cuts in funding. HCAs have their place, there's no doubt, but they can't diagnose mental illness, prescribe the appropriate therapies or drugs, or refer on to other services. It would have made his service unsafe and he felt he couldn't risk his professional reputation, or his patients safety, by staying.
A friend of ours, who is a camhs consultant, was working part time with four colleagues covering a huge area. They had a good service complemented by allied professionals, and charities who were also in receipt of government money and who offered excellent support to children who were referred to them.
In 2010 their service was told to make huge cuts (I can't quite remember how much, but in the region of 35%). They lost two consultant posts so the others had to pick up their work. It became too much for two of the remaining drs, so they moved on leaving just my friend who was supposed to be part time, but working full time for a part time salary. The charities had their funding cut too, so could no longer take the number of children they had been, leaving lots of vulnerable kids and families with no support.
My friend tried so hard to keep going, but in the end it burnt her out and she had to leave because her own mental health suffered. She still has panic attacks now. She, and her colleagues would completely empathise with your situation, but it's not their fault.
I'll say it again. We have an extremely cost efficient health service, in terms of effective care, and only spend a very small (and reducing) % of gdp on it. We should be fighting to have the spending reinstated so that everyone can access the kind of care you can afford for your DD. It shouldn't be dependent on income. My DH has always been committed to the NHS and he feels very strongly that everyone should have equal access to his expertise.

[user7755]

We are not going to agree on this.

If your child is unwell that takes priority over school (although I do think out of hours services should be available but that would take more investment which just isn't forthcoming). There is no need for a clinical psychologist or psychiatrist in most cases. Nurses / Social workers have valid qualifications and experience and can be just as (if not more) specialised in aspects of care than psychologists. If you chose to pay for a psychiatrist to see your child, that is your choice, my 25 year experience of working in MH and 10 years of accessing CAMHS services tells me that nurses / SW input is largely more personalised and flexible than psychology / psychiatry and certainly more specialised in the case of a psychiatrist.

The primary mental health worker role is a farce but has been dictated by central government as the panacea to cure the ills of CAMHS, it doesn't work - practitioners know it doesn't work, families know it doesn't work but sadly the government don't listen to the people who actually know what they are talking about.

The NHS is not a business, practitioners have to remain objective and therefore are not allowed to recommend private practitioners. The best way to find someone is to look at the BABCP website.

I understand that you feel that you had poor service and that by paying you got something better. Your last post suggests to me that you equate the status / wages of the person treating your child with quality - I know for a fact that this is not true but if you can't see beyond that then I can see that a private service is more up your street.

And with this sentence I don't think any of the half dozen I spoke to were intellectually or professionally competent to provide my daughter's care I'm out of this discussion because you have no idea about the reality of CAMHS services but are quite happy to throw around hideous judgements like this. Frankly you sound like an arse.

[Peaceandloveeveryone]

What a load of bollocks, I agree with beaufort, you clearly have no idea what it's like to try and get help for a very unwell child and deal with camhs from the user side.

[Peaceandloveeveryone]

I mean you are seriously suggesting that a social worker be used instead of a psychiatrist?

[GirlsTimesThree]

user7755 is right. Psychiatrists and psychologists in a well run, multidisciplinary service are only needed for initial diagnosis (and not always then) and for intervention if needed. The team approach is the best way to get the best therapy, but no, the government doesn't listen to those doing the job.

[Peaceandloveeveryone]

You forgot to put 'in your opinion'. It would be nice if the parents were listened to (and I am a qualified nurse).

[Peaceandloveeveryone]

Nurses and social workers are not qualified to diagnose.

[WiseUpJanetWeiss]

Clarence
I'm unable to absorb the regular levothyroxine pills for underactive thyroid, so with my GPs approval I order my own medication from Mexico.

Seriously? You need a new GP or get referred to an endocrinologist. If the UK licensed version of levothyroxine is not suitable for you (lactose intolerance?) you can be prescribed an imported or specially prepared medicine. You should not have to, nor is it safe to, order medicines online.

This is not an NHS failing - it's a failing of your GP.

[BeaufortBelle]

With all due respect an individual who can't write down a telephone number correctly and phone me as agreed and who then says that she did her because she phoned me back when I chased her two weeks after that is not intellectually capable of dealing with a paper bag let alone taking responsibility for my child's MH care. It is not very hard to think, ooh, I must have got that number wrong; I'll write Mrs Belle a note and ask her to call me. But no, that would have been too much trouble and would have involved initiative.

Also, with due respect, I know my child better than a primary mental health worker who has met her for 30 minutes. I know that my child needs support to stay in school and to achieve because that's what makes her tick; I know that if my child loses six weeks of 2.5 hours of key A'Level tuition, within six weeks of starting a new school, my child will fall behind and get even more distressed about that and will probably drop out and suffer even more. I think any healthcare worker who refuses to listen to a mother's concerns is a far greater arse than me.

My dd went under a psychiatrist's care, she had four sessions of CBT with a clinical psychologist that weren't very helpful for her and she was escalating, we saw the psychiatrist again, the psychiatrist felt her exhaustion wasn't in line with a classic depressive pattern and ordered bloods, dd was diagnosed with an underlying chronic medical condition, that is now being treated alongside the depression which was exacerbated by it. I don't think you can seriously believe that a primary health worker or a social worker could have linked the pattern of exhaustion beyond the depression and referred for bloods - therefore they could not have treated my daughter holistically and probably wouldn't have referred upwards because they would have realised the need to. First appointment early October, turning round by December.

My daughter is happy again, her condition is being treated, she is doing incredibly well at school and applying to universities, including Oxford.

I don't think any of that would have been achieved without escalation and a suicide attempt if we'd stayed with CAMHS. It's a pity the CAMHS staff aren't striking for the sake of their patients rather than the junior doctors because they've been offered an 11% pay rise.

I don't think ensuring one's child receives the best possible care when those responsible for providing it in the NHS/CAMHS services only provide services between 9-5 (but actually they don't, because they aren't available for work at 9am in my experience).

If you still think I'm an arse be my guest but I did my best for my daughter when CAMHs spectacularly failed - oh hang on they didn't, when I told them I'd was meeting my MP they found an acceptable intervention. At least I wasn't such an arse that I accepted it at the expense of other children when we had an alternative.

[GirlsTimesThree]

But it isn't my opinion. There's evidence that a multidisciplinary approach is the most effective, given that the variety of conditions and the causes of the problems young people experience differ. Sometimes a psychiatrist is the best person, sometimes a nurse, sometimes family therapy is the most appropriate treatment.
Of course parents need to be listened to, believe me, having almost lost our daughter because we were ignored by a gp three times, I know how true that is.

[Peaceandloveeveryone]

There is no need for a clinical psychologist or psychiatrist in most cases

I don't know what evidence you are relying on but I am objecting to this statement, it's not true in my experience. Multidisciplinary is fine but in no way can replace a psychiatrist or pyschologist, it needs to be alongside.

[GirlsTimesThree]

Now you really are being a bit of an arse, Beaufort. Your lack of understanding and insight is glaringly obvious, as is your ignorance.
Hey ho, carry on, the rest of us will fight for the kids who can't afford private treatment and the drs striving to provide it with reduced funding. I hope your dd continues to improve.

[Peaceandloveeveryone]

Girls that was really nasty, she clearly has gone through a lot and you are completely refuting her experience. What a spiteful post.

[GirlsTimesThree]

I didn't say that peace.

[GirlsTimesThree]

I'm not refuting anything - she's obviously been through a lot and I was very supportive in my previous post, but to have a go at the drs who, whether you believe it or not, are striking because they want to provide the best care they can, was below the belt. That was the bit which I objected to.
I apologise if it doesn't come across that way. I would never denigrate anyone seeking the best they can for their own child. I just feel for those who can't access it.

[BirthdayBetty]

Public money into private hands, the raison d'être of the Conservative Party.

[blueemerald]

I teach in a school for students with mental health issues and CAMHS is a laughing stock. Only mentioned in with a wry laugh and a roll of the eyes. I've lost count of the number of self harming/violent/destructive/suicidal teenagers we have had who "don't meet their threshold."

I would confidently estimate that 0% of our parents can afford private health care so we just muddle along as best we can. And if we ever do lose one of our students to suicide can you guess who will get the blame, despite numerous CAMHS/social services referrals?

[Peaceandloveeveryone]

Girl you are married to a consultant if I remember rightly from another thread (I am a frequent namechanger), do you not think that is affecting your judgement on this?

[GirlsTimesThree]

What judgement?