So there's apparently not an NHS anymore?

[MattDillonsPants]

www.independent.co.uk/voices/terrifyingly-according-to-the-world-health-organisation-definition-the-uk-no-longer-has-a-nhs-a6923126.html

Is it so? ;(

[BeaufortBelle]

I'm a have. Unfortunately, I think I'd get better care in the US and in most of Europe. I don't see why I should continue to put up with something second rate for the sake of the "have nots". As a family we already fund a lot of our own private care. My dd was very unwell in the autumn. There was no mental health support available via CAMHS. Nothing preventative at all - although there would have been if she'd escalated and overdosed and if her life chances had been blown because she received no help prior to that. Wasn't it a good job that we were able to fund a psychiatric referral and ensure she got the help she needed. The NHS wasn't even prepared to give a recommendation.

Not so long ago I broke my back. A&E, nurse or reception, couldn't' be bothered to find me a chair I could sit on (not the metal low things which I don't think I'd have been able to get up from). They thought it was OK to leave me standing, holding onto the rail at the reception desk for twenty minutes. The doctor was OK when I saw him and had me lying flat and not moving immediately - but because the break was stable I was sent home without pain relief. I am very sorry but the standards I have just described are not acceptable and they are not what I am prepared to continue to subsidise.

[Believeitornot]

I believe that the state should provide a safety net for all and that includes universal health care. With that safety net comes responsibility, of course.

Capitalism in the purest sense never works because the power dynamic between big business and employees/customers is too great so you need some state intervention. Also look what happened with the 2008 banking crisis. If capitalism were truely so wonderful then the banks should have been allowed to fail.

Countries work best with a mixture of state and private sector provision. They should have a healthy respect for each other and the roles that they bring.

The "have nots" could become "haves" if they're given just enough support.

I speak as one - child of an alcoholic single mother with severe mental health problems. I, as a child, had no power to do anything about my living conditions etc.

Luckily for me the state provided that safety net and I'm now a higher rate tax payer and giving back to society.

That is my inspiration for supporting the NHS and decent education. I'd never in a million years vote Tory because they'd kick children, in my state, to nothing.

[GirlsTimesThree]

Germany spends over 11% of gdp on healthcare, the UK was spending around 8% which is gradually being lowered to 7%. The commonwealth fund found it to be the most cost effective healthcare service in the world. To say it's unaffordable is simply untrue.
www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/press-releases/2014/jun/us-health-system-ranks-last
The cutting of services to make it look unaffordable is deliberate, so that the govt can sell more and more of it off. How many of our MPs have financial interests in the private health funds and allied services.
It's fine for those of us who can afford private health care, but I don't want anyone to be making a profit out of anyone's misfortune, including mine. I want care based on need, rather on what's profitable for shareholders.

[OvariesBeforeBrovaries]

I don't see why I should continue to put up with something second rate for the sake of the "have nots".

The Tories should adopt this as their slogan for the next election.

[DangerMouth]

The idea of the NHS really is amazing and I'm sure when it was working it was fantastic. But it is no longer working and what most people are missing is that it just can't exist any more. The government are trying to slowly tell the public this but no one is listening. You can go on and on about how wonderful the nhs is, but that won't fix the reality of an impossible dream no longer being viable.

Does any other country in the world have anything like this? No, because it just can't be sustained.

The amount of people paying in compared to the amount of people using it means it can't be balanced.

It's a shame.

[Arpege]

Well it's the same with the railways, the business model for a publicly owned railway system just doesn't make sense. Never did.

You can cry and beat your chest all you like, but in the real world these things just aren't feasible.

[user7755]

Arpege - I don't have experience of other systems (USA, Aus and UK only), so won't comment on something I know nothing about.

I want to preserve the NHS because I believe that as members of a community of people we have a responsibility to look after each other in times of need. I believe that our health outcomes (as a whole, not individual stories) are far better now than they were before we had healthcare which was free at the point of access and I do not want to go back to a time when you could only get healthcare if you paid for it.

The health and social outcomes for people are directly related to the size of the gap between the rich and poor, across the world. It is my belief that this is wrong and if I need to pay additional taxes to ensure that everyone has a fair go, then I will happily do that.

I have worked in private and state run services and I can honestly say that the reason that private services seem to offer better treatment is partly because they cut corners but focus on how to 'sell' services rather than actually deliver person centred care (and to be fair, their overheads are much lower and they don't have to jump through the number of hoops that state services do).

[megletthesecond]

clarence I will be telling my dc's to set up private plans as soon as they hit 18/21 . I doubt there'll be much nhs left by the time they hit middle age in the 2050's. They're also being raised to be very health aware. It's scary.

[fakenamefornow]

I think everyone should be charged for missed appointments unless cancelled with sufficient notice.

I agree. This is the only charging for the NHS I think is absolutely right and I think the charging should apply to everybody.

[BMW6]

Well, that released the fox into the hen house didn't it OP .........

What a load of bollocks.

[HelenaDove]

Fair enough Fakename as long as its the same the other way round.

[caroldecker]

Let's remember it was Labour who signed all the PFI NHS contracts and it was Labour who introduced charges into the NHS (for opticians, dentists and prescriptions). Since it was set-up, the conservatives have not charged for anything.
So, if you want to blame anyone for private providers making money from the NHS, you can only blame the Labour party.

[BeaufortBelle]

user I agree members of a community should have the responsibility to look after each other when things go wrong. You would think that would be the case in the NHS wouldn't you. So neither a receptionist nor a nurse I a not busy NHS department ciuld be bothered to get off their backsides to find me a chair I could sit in when I had a broken back. The nurse did get me a,wheelchair but only after I insisted somebody did so. It is just not good enough - there are too many people in it who don't think their role is to provide a service. It is an attitude I've come across too often.

[GirlsTimesThree]

The PFI fiasco was a huge mistake, but paying a bit towards your dental, optical and prescription charges goes the NHS.
If you really believe the tories haven't privatised anything since being in power you really need to do a bit more research.
They may not be directly charging the patient, but they're awarding NHS contracts (via the CCGs, despite the NHS providers often being cheaper) to private companies. Who has financial interests in those companies? Hmmm...

[BeaufortBelle]

Well the CCG has stepped in where I live to reorganise CAMHS which was not fit for purpose.

[GirlsTimesThree]

Of course mental health services aren't fit for purpose, they're completely starved of funding!
My DH is a psychiatrist and would completely agree with you. He was on the verge of leaving because he couldn't provide a safe level of service anymore. That's not the fault of the people working in it, it's the cuts which are being imposed.
His service has a temporary reprieve because it's a 'fashionable' service atm, but there are still moves to make unsafe changes and no one is listening to staff voicing concerns. These aren't people frightened of change, they're at the cutting edge of research based, proven effective care who want positive change, but have had their funding cut.

[user7755]

Beaufort - then you complain. It doesn't mean that the whole system and ideology needs dismantling. I've had terrible treatment in the NHS (children's services in particular), but that doesn't mean it needs getting rid of. It means that the bad bits need addressing.

CAMHS is a universal problem, it is underfunded and the proposed solutions to the underfunding result in more fragmented care, delivered by less highly qualified people

[BeaufortBelle]

So if CAMHs is a universal problem, why then doesn't the system tell us that honestly so we can make alternative arrangements rather than stringing along vulnerable teenagers? From what I saw I wasn't sure it was underfunded. Wasteful and with inappropriate priorities yes - underfunded? I was told it was a 9-5 service. So, why then was the answering machine on at 9.10 and when dd and I arrived early, at 9.10 for a 9.30 appointment, was the building in darkness? I'm still waiting for an apology. The staff I came across were totally incompetent and the service seemed to exist for their own convenience.

What is the point of complaining when all one gets is an NHS double speak apology and nothing ever improves.

[cleaty]

My partner is employed to start work at 9.15am with first appointment at 9.30am. Most staff are part time. Does not make them incompetent.

[caroldecker]

girlstimesthree Since the outset of the NHS, most money spent has gone to private companies, namely:

GP's
Drug companies
Pharmacists
equipment suppliers

The only public bit has been the staff in hospitals - and a few of those are now employed by private companies.

[cleaty]

Arpege - But train fares have soared since privitisation. How is that good for users of the railway?

[cleaty]

Some primary care has been privatised in mental health services. And I know where I live it is not as good as a result.

[user7755]

The people who work in CAMHS, desperately want to do the best they can but they will tell you informally that they are struggling because they are under resourced and are dealing with massively increasing numbers of referrals. Of course, they can't go on record with that. There may be individuals who are incompetent and don't care, but I don't for a minute think that this reflects the whole service - people who work in CAMHS do it because they care deeply (otherwise they wouldn't be dealing with such trauma with such limited resources, bringing in things from home to support kids, being called out in the middle of the night to support kids who are self harming, suicidal or violent - it's not because it's an easy job or because they get paid well).

If you don't get the response you like, complain again - to the CCG if needed. I have done that with regards to children's disability services, because it is them who make the difference in terms of provision, individual behaviour though is a local issue.

I'm afraid that if you see a snapshot of a service and are concerned about your own child (understandably), it's difficult to understand the broader issues which impact on service delivery - and if you are stressed about your child, you may not even care about the wider issues.

[shazzarooney99]

Cahms are very very understaffed, the system with Cahms is crazy, my son often threatens to kill himself and we got reffered to Cahms, saw Cahms 2 weeks later who say he needs to see a pychologist whos in the same bloody bit,same bloody people, yet we have to wait 8 months to see a pychologist, its crazy!!!!

[user7755]

We have been waiting for 2 years for an assessment for autism. There are 2 people in the team, after 18 months we were seventy somethingth on the waiting list. That is the reality of the staffing situation.