So there's apparently not an NHS anymore?

[MattDillonsPants]

www.independent.co.uk/voices/terrifyingly-according-to-the-world-health-organisation-definition-the-uk-no-longer-has-a-nhs-a6923126.html

Is it so? ;(

[ScoutsMam]

it's also unfair that the standard of service varies so much depending on which part of the country you live in.

I can imagine it'll be the same under any form of private system though. I'm from a low income area, very deprived in places. Who'd build/maintain/run a huge hospital here? Not worth it in business terms.

[tangerinesarenottheonlyfruit]

TinyTerrors the book this article's based on looks worth a read too:

How the NHS is being dismanteld in 10 easy steps

For anyone who can't be bothered to read the book, or the abridged version of the book linked above, here's an abridged version of the abridged version! ...

1. Create a Market
Ken Clark, Margaret Thatcher

2. Introduce Public-Private partnerships
John Major & then New Labour

3. Facilitate the Corporate Takeover
Foundation Trusts introduced in 2003, converting hospitals into semi-independent businesses.
Privatisation of out-of-hours
Outsourcing of GP services

4. Install a Revolving Door
A succession of ex-health secretaries and ministers now work for private healthcare.
Top tiers of the Department of Health and NHS management infiltrated by management consultants
Virtually the entire board of Monitor, the independent regulator of the NHS, now come from a corporate background.

5. Organise a Great Big Sell Off
Virgin, Circle, Bupa, Serco, UnitedHealth and even Lockheed Martin are in a race to win NHS contracts.

6. Run a Smear Campaign
The Government’s case for change largely rests on the premise of the NHS no longer being affordable and that it needs to be modernised. Yet the Commonwealth Fund rates the NHS as the best healthcare system in the world and the OECD describes it as one of the best performers in the world. It is overwhelmingly popular with the public.

7. Legislate for the Dismantling of the NHS
The Health & Social Care Act removes the Government’s responsibility for the NHS.
Clinical Commissioning Groups (CCGs) are forced to open contracts to unlimited privatisation.

8. Plot Against the NHS
Back in 2005, Jeremy Hunt co-authored a book Direct Democracy calling for the NHS to be dismantled. It included the line: “Our ambition should be to break down the barriers between private and public provision, in effect denationalising the provision of health care in Britain”.

David Cameron’s health advisor Nick Seddon, suggests that CCGs should be merged with private insurance companies and those who can afford to should contribute towards their health care.

9. Brew the Perfect Storm

The Government consistently claims the health budget is protected. In reality, the NHS has been forced to make cuts of up to £15-20 billion and these are being extended. Tens of NHS trusts are in danger of going bust with PFI debts as a major factor. Sixty-six hospitals face closures of some kind. Never mind that buying out or renegotiating PFI contracts would solve this problem at a stroke.

10. Introduce Universal Private Health Insurance

So how will this brave, new world look? Our health service will have clinical commissioning groups acting as insurance pools, buying care from private companies.

The NHS will become a state insurer along the lines of Medicare in the US. Meanwhile, personal health budgets – which allow patients, rather than doctors, to decide how money is spent on treating their conditions - will be extended to 5 million people by 2018. This is likely to lead to co-payments funded through private insurance.

The article finishes ...

"The Government’s efforts to remove universal healthcare from each and every one of us makes my blood boil. I have one question for David Cameron: who gave you permission to break up our NHS and sell it off?

It’s now over to the public to save our NHS. It’s up to you."

[tangerinesarenottheonlyfruit]

"I don't think the NHS can continue in its present form"

Be careful what you wish for.

Privatisation is not the answer. Not if you have patient's health wellbeing at heart rather than company profits, that is.

[TattieHowkerz]

It's terrible. This hasn't happened in Scotland, thank goodness. The Tories just say "no, no, we won't privatise the NHS". While privatising it.

[tangerinesarenottheonlyfruit]

"I wouldn't object to a charge of say £10 for GP's appoinments."

You are aware of the existence of infectious disease, are you not?

I don't want to be at risk of catching diseases because other people can't or won't pay £10 to see the Doctor!

[trufflehunterthebadger]

what i want to know is, when i have to pay for private medical insurance because the nhs no longer exists, how much am i going to getting back off my tax that i currently pay for a health system free at the point of need ?

[cleaty]

Charging £10 to see a GO will just lead to more people going to A&E for routine healthcare.

Also if you regularly go to the hospital as I do, more and more GPs or nurses have to do tests that are for hospital consultants.

[neonrainbow]

I think everyone should be charged for missed appointments unless cancelled with sufficient notice. That might focus people a little . My gp surgery has a sign up saying how many missed appointments they have each month. Its absolutely ridiculous.

[Arpege]

yawn.

Universal health insurance is the way forward. I've never had anything except shit service from the nhs.

I think you're all brainwashed

[CaughtUpNearTimbuktu]

This has been happening for years. Well before the Tories got into power

[cleaty]

I would once have supported this. In the last two years I have had a lot of ill health and have missed a few appointments. I go to the hospital or GP at least once a week. And I feel not with it a lot of the time. I get mixed up what day it is. Charging would have made no difference at all, except to my limited finances.

[cleaty]

You have never had anything but shit service from the NHS? Well that means you will have had shit service from some already privatised services as well.

[Arpege]

I now live somewhere with universal insurance. In my experience it is massively better

[MrsTerryPratchett]

What people forget is that in a public system, prevention is cheap; treatment is expensive. In a private system, prevention is low profit; treatment is high profit. So, being sick is better.

Also, we can't have people keeling over with TB in the street so we need to have emergency medicine for all. Which is massively expensive compared to primary healthcare. Everyone will still have massive healthcare tax bills and less to show for it.

And no mass bargaining power. So everything costs more (just look at the ridiculous costs in the American system).

Look forward to drug advertising on TV. It's awesome and you will find out you have a treatable, expensive ailment if you watch enough of it. North America is medicated up to its eyeballs. Restless legs, anxiety, sleeplessness, allergies; your doctor knows nothing. The advertisers know all. Listen to them.

[cleaty]

Yes my relatives in the US have the same genetic condition as my family does. They all die much younger, as unlike here, their insurance does not pay for preventative drugs.

Most healthcare is on the very young, and the very old. The very old are not good for private health care as they are very expensive to treat. Which is why even though plenty of "NHS" hip operations are done privately, the NHS still does those with elderly people with lots of other health issues.

[Arpege]

Germany manages to run an insurance based system and have much less medication swimming about than the uk.

Culturally they are big into herbal remedies so if you go to the doctor with anything except a bacterial infection you'll get a prescription for eucalyptus tablets which I chuck in the bin

[hiddenhome2]

They should charge people for going to A&E with routine stuff.

When are they going to legalise assisted suicide if we're all going to be facing a future with no healthcare? It's cruel to force people to remain alive with untreated illnesses.

[Wigeon]

Hang on hang on, some of this is just factually inaccurate.

Clinical Commissioning Groups aren't solely responsible for running the NHS. They do get about two thirds of the £100bn or so NHS budget, but this all comes through NHS England and CCGs report to NHS England. The other third is spent directly by NHS England on nationally commissioned services. NHS England is directly accountable to the government, and the government sets their objectives you can read their objectives for 2015-16 here. NHS England then directs the CCGs in the annual planning guidance.

Yes, there has been an increase in private provision of health services under the current government, but it was already increasing under Labour, and since 2010 it's gone from 4.9% to 6.1%. So I think it's just inaccurate to say the NHS is being privatised, although there has been a small increase source of figures here in a Parliamentary Question.

And there is a snowball's chance in hell of the Caroline Lucas bill getting through - it will get blocked by the government (who have a majority in parliament). So really no point signing that petition.

And if you would like to read what the Health and Social Care Act actually says, it's here - the very first clause requires the Secetary of State for Health to maintain a comprehensive health service (so no refusing to provide health care in rural areas because it's not cost effective). The first clause of the whole Act continues to states that the Secretary of State retains ministerial responsibility to Plarilament for the provision of the health service, and that that service must be free unless there is specific laws passed (eg charges for dental services, as there have been for years).

There are plenty of criticisms you can make of the health service or this govnerment, but please base them on actual facts and evidence.

[cleaty]

Germany spends much more on their healthcare. And yes, it is better.

[CaughtUpNearTimbuktu]

The reason more and more people are living with more and more ailments is because medicine is set up to prolong life at all costs, not a model I agree with. I prefer quality over quantity

[MrsTerryPratchett]

We had a family member who got cancer in the States, had insurance and was very well off. Ended his life with his family handing him cheques in hospital for medications. Thousands of dollars. He had spent every penny and more. The businesses will find a way, as every insurance company does, of not paying when you need them.

Like lambs to the slaughter.

[cleaty]

Lots of MNers recommend going to A&E with routine stuff, or calling an ambulance even.

[Absofrigginlootly]

That article has left me I knew the Tories wanted to privatise, but I didn't realize they'd actually passed that bill!!!!!! WHY wasn't there a public outcry?!
We are sleepwalking into a fully private system. I worked for year in the NHS and I now live in the U.S., I agree with mrsterryp it's awful, over medicalised and so expensive.

I actually feel too upset to sit and type all the reasons why we need the NHS from both a patient, staff and national level.

But people like arpege ask yourself this, did utilities, public transport, postal service etc get more efficient and less expensive after privatisation?!

[Arpege]

It's cruel to force people to remain alive with untreated illnesses.

My friend has a congenital illness that the nhs won't treat at all. She lives with constant (a couple of times a week) joint dislocation.

Nhs attitude is "suck it up sister"

Within 6 months in Germany she was hospitalized after a dislocation and is now being (finally) treated. The German doctors are incredulous that in the uk it's regarded as not worth treating.

I'm not going to support a system which has so little money it doesn't treat lifelong illnesses

[CaughtUpNearTimbuktu]

Well said wigeon mumsnet loves a bit of hysteria