WIBU to buy PIL a copy of Marie Kondo and save them £400k?!

[allthatissolidmeltsintoair]

Regular but NCed for this. I am prepared to be told I am being unreasonable, and that I need to butt out and mind my own business!!

Apologies for length - I didn't want to drip feed.

Context:

• PIL (aged 70) currently live in a very well designed 3 bedroom house (it really is lovely). They also own a currently unoccupied 3-bed bungalow, which they don't really like in terms of layout. As this might suggest, they are not without resources financially!
  
• FIL has mobility issues, and has refused to have surgery to correct these (he's frightened of the anaesthetic). Sadly, his mobility is now severely impaired, and he will probably need a wheelchair before long. However, the design of the house means there is room to modify it to suit his needs, e.g. stairlifts, large corridors. The bungalow is already set up for a mobility-impaired resident, but requires cosmetic decoration.
  
• However, the interior decor of their current house doesn't allow those modifications to be made. Both PIL are hoarders. The house is overly full - there is literally twice as much furniture as will fit, including stuff that simply doesn't work (ancient stereos, uncomfortable collapsed beds etc). Everything is rammed in, and there is no room to move for a person without mobility issues, let alone a wheelchair. However, they really, really struggle to throw things away.
  
• MIL is clearly struggling to manage the existing space in terms of maintenance and cleaning (FIL doesn't/can't lift a finger). They are, however, very resistant to getting in help, despite having plenty of money to do so.
  
• MIL has become irrationally obsessed with the neighbours because they are simply polite, rather than wanting to be bessie mates with PIL. They say 'hello', but they don't stop to chat. She is incredibly enraged by some plastic cladding that they are putting on their house, and the fact that they don't mow their lawn as regularly as PIL. I am actually quite concerned about this as an overreaction in its own right (she goes purple when talking about them). It's a push-factor in the idea of moving, but I can't imagine future neighbours really wanting to have a closer relationship.
  

Problem:

• PIL rang up last night to ask our advice. Rather than downsizing, they want to upsize to a bigger place. In fact, they want to sell their house and buy the bungalow next to GFIL's and knock through to make a 7 bedroom bungalow. The whole reason for doing this rather than simply moving or modifying their existing house is to hang on to all the junk they own.
  

My concerns:

• MIL isn't managing the 3 bedroom space she has. AIBU to think that a 7 bedroom space would make this problem even worse, even if there are no stairs?
  
• AIBU to think that having more space will increase the tendency to hoard, rather than solving it?
  
• AIBU to think that the new space will be really expensive to heat and maintain? The current house is already cold at times because they don't want to put the heating on.
  
• The floorplan of this new dwelling would be huge. FIL already has extreme anxiety issues - I think the size if it might raise issues of security in his mind, where he's at one end of the place worrying what is happening at the other.
  
• There is no real market for bungalows with more than 4 bedrooms in their area. I'm concerned that should either of them need to move in future, this will make it difficult to sell.
  
• I've not seen many knock-through dwellings, but I can imagine that it would be difficult to design a 'happy' architectural solution.
  
• Larger and nicer dwellings are on the market for less than the cost of the two bungalows combined (£600k), without the large additional cost (£100k??) of the work of knocking them into one. PIL have form for having building work done that is expensive and doesn't really solve problems. Very recently, they spent £80,000 installing a new utility room which is never used and has become a store for excess glasses and pots and pans that they couldn't bear to throw out.
  

I should add that DH and myself, and BIL and his partner, are comfortably off and not at all in any need of money. My concern is purely that this is not a practical solution to their circumstances, and is likely to prove another mistake (like the utility room) that doesn't solve the root problems and therefore necessitates a further move in future, to a more suitable place. I'd really like the advice of people, especially if you have relatives who have downsized or upsized at a similar age.

DH is thinking of buying MIL a copy of Marie Kondo's book as a way of raising what we believe to be the real issue here, which is the hoarding. Are we being unreasonable or failing to understand the issues they are facing, though?

[StuffEverywhere]

Marking my place. Some good advice so far.

I think your reasoning makes perfect sense and I agree that 7 bedrooms will lead to more trouble, not less. The way you laid your reasons out, in such great detail, reflects how reluctant your PILs are to change. (Otherwise you wouldn't think about it in such detail).

In terms of doing something that makes a significant difference, I think your only hope is creating a sense of urgency and attaching a definite, non-negotiable deadline to it. Perhaps the whole extended family can decide to host Christmas or celebrate another significant occasion at their house (birthday, anniversary, first grandchild's birthday, anything?...), and then you all do a big tidy-up in preparation? If you involve a lot of people, you can pack and move things away (to another house, storage, your house...) more quickly and avoid it being a never ending project. It'll only be 'temporary', for the celebration. But when the time comes to move things back, you can always question whether these things are needed.

[StuffEverywhere]

It's easy to slip into a hoarding mode if you're a bit depressed, but then everyday life becomes so hard because of this clutter everywhere, the simplest tasks become difficult and depressing, and you're stuck in this vicious circle.

Essentially, cluttered house has the same effect as a moaning child - it wears you out.

[StuffEverywhere]

One slightly weird but surprisingly effective suggestion that our friend gave my DH when we were in the middle of the biggest hoarding crisis of our marriage, was that his stuff 'is unhappy here - everyone is tripping over it, and it deserves better'.

I know it sounds a bit loony that 'stuff' is unhappy, and not people, but because emotional connection to the 'stuff' is so strong, it did make perfect sense to my DH. He totally related to it, and it opened some opportunities for discussions where 'stuff' and DH's feelings were respected.

[NightWanderer]

Obviously there are different reasons why people hoard.

It seems that your in-laws are not hoarding their own stuff, so much as they are hoarding stuff that they inherited from other people. So, perhaps they feel they cannot throw things out because of a "that's uncle James' end table and he worked hard to pay for it and would have wanted us to look after it" sort of mentality.

I do think the phone call was a cry for help and perhaps they realise they are not being realistic, so I think a chat would be a good idea. Whether they listen or not is another thing but perhaps could you explain that it's all very well taking care of other people's stuff but they have one house and they can only manage one-house worth of stuff. Uncle James always took good care of his home and wouldn't want to see them living like this. Perhaps rather than throwing the stuff out, it could be passed on to someone else who would cherish it and keep it and that would make things a lot easier for you in terms of taking care of the house which must be hard work.

I don't know, but when my parents down-sized they gave away a lot of furniture to a charity that collects furniture for women who have left their husbands and are starting from scratch. Perhaps you could find some sort of similar project where people are desperately looking for furniture and your in-laws would feel better about giving away to a good home rather than trashing it?

[Tortoiseonthehalfshell]

Honestly? Honestly honestly?

Your advice should be to move to the other bungalow and leave the current house as it is. Say 'move with the minimum of stuff for now, get the modifications in place, and then when you have a feel for how much space there is, move all the cherished things across as well'.

But they'll ignore it. Because it sounds like they can't fathom this kind of move. I can't really see them doing the whole knock-through whatsit either, that still requires packing and sorting and moving everything. They're old (before their time), and set in their ways, and all of these options push them outside their comfort zone.

SO. My actual priority, were I you, would be to call a family meeting with DH and his sibs, and decide what you guys are willing to do in what circumstances. Are you, for example, willing to take on the huge job of sorting and selling and gifting? Or, given the distance and the history of bullying and the fact that nobody in this story is hard-up, do you want to confine your role to advice/sympathy/understanding?

I mean you can't change people but you can change your approach to how you deal with them. What does this whole issue do to you guys? What are you really worried about, if things don't get sorted soon/the right way? What can you do about those things?

[TheHouseOnTheLane]

My friend bought me a book about avoiding hoarding and SENT IT TO ME VIA AMAZON

Cheeky bitch.

I'm not even that bad!

I have more ornaments and a bit of junk but am in no way a hoarder and regularly have clear outs. I'm not friends with her any more.

[allthatissolidmeltsintoair]

Stuff - I agree that the deadline is an important element here. It's not something I'd thought about much before, so thank you. I think FIL's decreasing mobility is probably the pressure to use here (the six of us, plus two greyhounds, regularly celebrate Christmas in the house and it's a nightmare because it's so cluttered and dusty and desperately uncomfortable). One of the really great things about the situation is that BIL and his partner are the nicest people in the world, so the four of us are very unified and we are all sending the same message. As Tortoise says, it's probably time for us to get together and talk about what support we can offer.

Night makes a really important point about the emotional attachment to these things. It's almost as if every single knackered old spoon is redolent with memory - almost as if these things are alive and in need of 'care'. I think an emotional (as opposed to a purely practical) solution is therefore going to be a big part of this. One of the reasons I've thought about Kondo rather than other organisers is that she deals with this directly - you are supposed first to consider whether something sparks joy for you, and if it doesn't you have a little ceremony where you thank the thing for its contribution to your life, and pass it on to someone else. I can see MIL being more able to part with things this way.

FIL also complained to me (very briefly) about MIL's hoarding at Christmas, which just annoyed me a bit at the time because he is just as bad but about different things!! But I realise that I actually missed a trick her, because I think we need to turn him into an ally who leads by example. If I can get him to get rid of some of the books he has, then that will be pressure on MIL to start sorting her furniture. Conveniently, the books are also in an awkward place for access (on shelves at the top of the stairs) so this also makes sense as a place to start. Many belonged to my FIL's father, and have never so much as been taken off the shelves by PIL. I've never even seen them pick up a book, let alone read one, so it's odd that they have thousands of the things around the place. Ebooks may also be a way forward.

Peregrina - that is a brilliant strategy for convincing someone about a cleaner. I'm going to remember that for my own family and my in laws!

[florentina1]

I had no idea how common this is. We are going through similar with two separate families. My solution would be to do nothing because you will never change these people.

When the time comes for a forced move, because of ill health or death, just hire a house clearer.

I have friends in their 8Os who are moving. They are hoarders, they have moved about 4 times in their life and each time bought new stuff but took the old stuff with them 'just in case'.

As for wanting to sell stuff, yep that too. One friends mum has been in a care home since the Spring. The son has been trying to clear the flat, but wants to sell the very expensive bed and 3 piece suite.

He is paying more in rent than he would ever get for the furniture but 'cannot bear' to give the stuff to charity.

[minifingerz]

I feel your pain.

Rather than downsize, my dad took out an equity release loan to pay for renovation of their large detached house, which they only needed to stay in because they had too much clutter to fit into a smaller house.

After his death it caused no end of problems, which were only temporarily resolved by my sister moving in with my mum, taking on a mortgage, and paying the equity release off. My mum and sister now have a 150K mortgage, at the age of 81, and 52 respectively.

I think some old people get incredibly, weirdly stubborn about things like this and can't be talked out of it.

Personally I'd work by stealth to persuade them to simplify their lives rather than complicate them. Not quite sure how I'd do this...

[StuffEverywhere]

FIL's decreasing mobility is probably the pressure to use here...

[SoEverybodyDance]

There is a kind of deadline here. If your FIL goes into a wheelchair he will probably need all sorts of equipment to continue living - such as a stand aid he can lean on to put on his clothes, help going to the loo/ a commode, help getting washed / an adapted bathroom, a stair lift to get upstairs, a hoist to help him into bed if he can't get out himself etc. These things need space to be put in and time to be got and installed. As time goes on, more aids will be needed. Your FIL cannot sit in a wheelchair all day, it will be bad for his back. If he doesn't have one he will probably need a reclining chair that will help push him out so he doesn't have to expend lots of effort trying to get up. My parents need all those things now and more.

His doctor, physiotherapists, occupational therapists (and probably given your MILs age and inability to deal with things domestically) social services will all be involved. They will come in and see all the inappropriate hoarding, notice your PILs indecisive, slow and difficult ways, realise that their family live far away and recognise that they are no longer able to cope. Your PIL will either end up being bed bound or sent to hospital/nursing home/care home until this is resolved so he can live in a wheelchair round the house. Then the burden will be on MIL to do it. I am not over exaggerating... My DF had to stay in bed for three weeks while we had a hoist installed and it tested us all.

Your FIL will also be vulnerable to falls so needs clear space around the house so he doesn't trip on things. This also happened to my DF and he spent 12 weeks in hospital with pneumonia and a broken hip and that was when the dementia set in. DM was on her own then, going up and down to the hospital trying to care for him. It was a very difficult time too.

Given their premature ageing, they will probably find all these things particularly difficult to cope with. A family meeting sounds a good step forward. We had to have one. We called on an elderly relative of my father's, who was much more sensible to help us. The only difference was we had a six week deadline which focused everyone's minds. The funny thing is that although my parents had hoarded and wouldn't throw anything away, when we put my them into a hotel, they had scarcely any interest in what we were doing, chucking lots of it away. We kept all the worthwhile and family stuff of course, but it seemed once the responsibility was gone, they were immensely relieved. All the non working hoovers they'd kept in the roof etc went easily into the skip with no questions asked!

Hope my messages are not too depressing and really wish that it goes smoother for you.

Dance

[allthatissolidmeltsintoair]

Dance - I'm so, so sorry you and your family went through that. It sounds incredibly stressful and demanding of all of you. Also minifingerz - I don't even know what to say, my heart goes out to you so much. Watching your mother and sister struggle to cope with the aftermath of a really selfish financial decision must be SO difficult.

The strangest thing about the situation is that MIL is aware that there is an issue - hence this crazy bungalow plan - but she can't let go of her stuff. She's trying to find these impractical solutions to avoid facing the crunch, which is that she must now choose between a knackered old sewing table and her quality of life. FIL would prefer to pretend that all is well, he's very head-in-the-sand. But he is literally bent over like a set square now, hobbling along like some strange insect with a cane in each hand. He's less and less able to move and so it's not really possible for him just to pretend it isn't happening any more.

If we can't resolve this, then I think the future will unfold very much as Dance suggests. We'll be in that awful pattern of an entirely foreseeable crisis that swamps so many older people because they can't let go.

I wonder if we will be different when we are older? I hope I will be.

for all of you in the same boat. I can't tell you how much it's comforted me just to have this 'conversation'. It's good to know others are in the same boat. And perhaps also good to start having these conversations about similar situations in a wider sense - because the issue of older people's housing and social care is so pressing, and yet we don't really discuss it that much! A friend of mine who is a gerontologist says that we should all plan how we want to live in our 70s in our 40s. Maybe she's right!!

[Dowser]

Oh dear. You have my utmost sympathy. I was in this position with my beloved aunt . Her and my uncle had no childrenso I somehow ended up as being the next one in charge.

I urged them in their 70s to get a bungalow but they wouldn't listen. Their place was immaculate and my aunt was very house proud . Anyway uncle died and my aunt rattled on on her own. If she'd had a bungalow it would have been much more manageable for her. When she fell going up the stairs she had to go into a care home. The house was emptied really quickly, a bit too quickly by mums friends which I was aggrieved about as no one was asked if they wanted a keepsake. I was horrified to go round one day to see my aunts lovely crockery being smashed into a recycling bin...someone could have had use of that.

That's what happens when there's no plan.

Your fil sounds in a bad way and there's going to be a crisis situation. The bungalow is the obvious choice.

I have a lot of stuff. Also nicely and neatly tucked away in cupboards. DH also had a lot of stuff in his place and brought a lot with him when he moved in with me. We got a skip cleared out my attic junk and then his was installed up there. It's ridiculous . It really is what we hang onto. Stuff went up after Christmas when we gave the kitchen another clear out. I doubt it will see the light of day again. Well not in my lifetime. I keep doing a drawer at a time. Cupboard at a time. Little and not very often.

Can you suggest they move to the bungalow with essentials. Once they leave the stuff behind, it's amazing how you forget about it. Tell them it's a temporary measure. They might enjoy it.

[allthatissolidmeltsintoair]

Update: I think this is good news, though there is still a long way to go.

PIL have abandoned the plan of buying the second bungalow and knocking through, on the grounds that it is financial insanity. DH and BIL made strong representations about the amount of work involved in such a project, FIL made the arguments about throwing away money.

HOWEVER, it's clear from the response that there is a division between the PILs about their situation. MIL recognises that something needs to be done, which is absolutely right, but is coming up with impractical solutions to avoid giving away her junk possessions. FIL has his head completely in the sand and doesn't want to change anything.

I am eager to ensure that MIL's really laudable attempt at planning for the future isn't now lost. I think this is emotionally difficult, because it might feel to her like she is 'losing' on two counts: she's being forced into a lifestyle by FIL's increasing disability when she's still hale and hearty herself, and she's also the one who has to part with all of this stuff to which she is attached. While we can now have a conversation about getting rid of things in a context where the idea of moving to a larger place has been abandoned, I'm concerned that she may feel really embattled and depressed about the fact that she's the one making sacrifices. (I should add that FIL could have had surgery to correct this problem, but elected not to - it's now too late!).

Further advice very welcome.

In the meantime, all of this has sent me into a spin of Kondoing my own house! My upstairs is now immaculate and I even managed to convince DH to get rid of some of his stuff that he hasn't used for years.

[Fizrim]

Thanks for the update. I do think you are right about your MIL (feeling as if she is losing on both fronts) but I'm not sure what you can do to make her feel any differently about it. It's also quite a sobering thought that FIL's unwillingness to go ahead with the treatment has affected them both so much.(furniture?) that she has? Could they rent a storage area (this costs megabucks long-term and could be an effective measure in it's own right!) and swap stuff in and out of it as required? With you living so far away, it wouldn't be that easy to swap stuff around of course ...

[Fizrim]

Well that didn't post correctly! It seems to have lost a line that said

Does MIL use the items (furniture?)

[Peregrina]

I don't think that renting storage is good. Unfortunately a hoarder will just shift old stuff to it, and then use the newly freed space in their house to fill it with more stuff.

At a guess, I would suspect that the furniture isn't used, but it's just there. An example with my DM - a neighbour's aunt had an old suite she wanted rid of - still OK. We were looking for a new suite so we were asked if we wanted it. The answer was no, not our taste, we would have to hire a van to move it 120 miles and we would rather put the money she wanted for the suite to something of our own choosing. We thought no more. What happened? Next time we went to my parents, there was the aunt's old suite, which they had bought from her, stuck in front of their existing suite! Honestly! D Bro once said that he counted 35 chairs/stools/seats in their front room, but you always had to clear off a pile of stuff before you could sit down anywhere.

The only practical thing I could think of at the moment would be can one of you go through the old newspapers and cut out the recipes, and then bin the rest? That would just make a smidgeon of space.

(For me having a clear out is cathartic - I get a real buzz out of a trip to the tip, but it wasn't so for DM - she would still be upset about xyz thrown out 30 years earlier.)

[wizzywig]

Ive got Hoarders on Sky Plus. Compelling viewing. If your inlaws are as bad as the hoarders on that programme, a book aint gonna do anything.

[Peregrina]

I used to love Dawna Walter on Life Laundry a few years back. Ah, when the crusher came and all that nasty old broken stuff bit the dust. She would also try to get to the bottom of why people hoarded.

Just thinking back about buying the Marie Kondo book - someone did buy DM a decluttering book once. Needless to say, it sat on the shelf unlooked at. (Still it was on a shelf, and not on a chair.)

[allthatissolidmeltsintoair]

peregrina - you are SPOT ON! And I laughed at that story about the three-piece suite, but my God it is laughter that comes from a place of knowing how frustrating it must have been for you to walk in there and see it.

The furniture isn't used, though I think MIL would say it is because it's sort of everywhere, so magazines, cups etc get put on top of it because there's nowhere else. It's kept because they can't bear to part with it unless it's to a 'good home' or is sold. Charity shops don't count as a 'good home' and PIL nearly had an apoplectic fit over Freecycle when someone didn't say 'thank you' with sufficient reverence. They find selling things on ebay difficult and stressful, and they have no need for the money so it's not much of a stimulus really.

They are also not beyond inconsistent rationalisations on the grounds of virtue - so keeping stuff is 'recycling' it, they are being green and deserve a medal for saving the planet etc etc etc. We haven't really countered this, but I fear that DH and BIL probably need to provide a gentle challenge at some point.

[allthatissolidmeltsintoair]

Oh, and on a happier note, I solved a cupboard problem at home!

I have old-fashioned built-in wardrobes that were probably installed by a joiner in the late 70s. I don't really like them aesthetically, but they are really well built and super useful for storage. They have one side for hanging stuff up, and another that is subdivided into shelved compartments. However, these are an awkward size - around 40cm high, and 60cm deep. I just couldn't get to the back, yet the height meant that stacked clothes very quickly fell all over the place into untidiness especially when DH just pulls a jumper out from the bottom of the pile, grrrr.

I bought some drawers from Muji that fit almost perfectly! They pull right out and I can get to the back to use the space there that I couldn't reach. Plus, they look really neat. Dead chuffed!

[StuffEverywhere]

So, for FIL the potential expense of the second bungalow is an excuse to not give a toss about their 'stuff'. This is typical passive aggressive behaviour and must be challenged! I'm guessing MIL is unable to pull him up on it, for the fear that her concerns will be ignored or dismissed, or laughed at, but someone has to do it! The situation is extremely bad already, but it can get worse! Don't they deserve to enjoy this phase of life to the best of their ability, without having to climb over things (figuratively speaking)?

As I say, I would set a deadline - either real one (if they respond to the voice of reason about their age etc), or an artificial one (special occasion celebration), or better still - BOTH! - and make one radical change, that would make going back to their old norms difficult and unappealing.

[allthatissolidmeltsintoair]

StuffEverywhere - you've perceptively put your finger on a big problem, which I didn't mention in my original post because it didn't seem relevant at the time (and it was already long enough ). FIL is very passive-aggressive, very sensitive to perceived slights but not at all sensitive to the feelings of others. He's very stubborn, a bit of a bully really - was a tyrannical father to DH and BIL (sometimes overtly, with anger, mostly with PA behaviours). MIL has coped for years by ignoring all social hints and nuances and just getting on with her own thing - which means that she's essentially trained herself to hear only what she wants to hear. Socially, she has a tendency to bulldoze as a result.

The combination of behaviours makes them very difficult to handle as a couple, especially in situations where they both want different things!

[StuffEverywhere]

It is hard to deal with people like this, and it will only get worse before it gets better, this is why a deadline is essential. And then a big sigh of relief and a bottle of wine, and a year or two until you can all talk to each other again

[Gwenhwyfar]

"I had no idea how common this is."

Look at all the storage companies out there. Selling people space for stuff they think they'll need again in the future.