WIBU to buy PIL a copy of Marie Kondo and save them £400k?!

[allthatissolidmeltsintoair]

Regular but NCed for this. I am prepared to be told I am being unreasonable, and that I need to butt out and mind my own business!!

Apologies for length - I didn't want to drip feed.

Context:

• PIL (aged 70) currently live in a very well designed 3 bedroom house (it really is lovely). They also own a currently unoccupied 3-bed bungalow, which they don't really like in terms of layout. As this might suggest, they are not without resources financially!
  
• FIL has mobility issues, and has refused to have surgery to correct these (he's frightened of the anaesthetic). Sadly, his mobility is now severely impaired, and he will probably need a wheelchair before long. However, the design of the house means there is room to modify it to suit his needs, e.g. stairlifts, large corridors. The bungalow is already set up for a mobility-impaired resident, but requires cosmetic decoration.
  
• However, the interior decor of their current house doesn't allow those modifications to be made. Both PIL are hoarders. The house is overly full - there is literally twice as much furniture as will fit, including stuff that simply doesn't work (ancient stereos, uncomfortable collapsed beds etc). Everything is rammed in, and there is no room to move for a person without mobility issues, let alone a wheelchair. However, they really, really struggle to throw things away.
  
• MIL is clearly struggling to manage the existing space in terms of maintenance and cleaning (FIL doesn't/can't lift a finger). They are, however, very resistant to getting in help, despite having plenty of money to do so.
  
• MIL has become irrationally obsessed with the neighbours because they are simply polite, rather than wanting to be bessie mates with PIL. They say 'hello', but they don't stop to chat. She is incredibly enraged by some plastic cladding that they are putting on their house, and the fact that they don't mow their lawn as regularly as PIL. I am actually quite concerned about this as an overreaction in its own right (she goes purple when talking about them). It's a push-factor in the idea of moving, but I can't imagine future neighbours really wanting to have a closer relationship.
  

Problem:

• PIL rang up last night to ask our advice. Rather than downsizing, they want to upsize to a bigger place. In fact, they want to sell their house and buy the bungalow next to GFIL's and knock through to make a 7 bedroom bungalow. The whole reason for doing this rather than simply moving or modifying their existing house is to hang on to all the junk they own.
  

My concerns:

• MIL isn't managing the 3 bedroom space she has. AIBU to think that a 7 bedroom space would make this problem even worse, even if there are no stairs?
  
• AIBU to think that having more space will increase the tendency to hoard, rather than solving it?
  
• AIBU to think that the new space will be really expensive to heat and maintain? The current house is already cold at times because they don't want to put the heating on.
  
• The floorplan of this new dwelling would be huge. FIL already has extreme anxiety issues - I think the size if it might raise issues of security in his mind, where he's at one end of the place worrying what is happening at the other.
  
• There is no real market for bungalows with more than 4 bedrooms in their area. I'm concerned that should either of them need to move in future, this will make it difficult to sell.
  
• I've not seen many knock-through dwellings, but I can imagine that it would be difficult to design a 'happy' architectural solution.
  
• Larger and nicer dwellings are on the market for less than the cost of the two bungalows combined (£600k), without the large additional cost (£100k??) of the work of knocking them into one. PIL have form for having building work done that is expensive and doesn't really solve problems. Very recently, they spent £80,000 installing a new utility room which is never used and has become a store for excess glasses and pots and pans that they couldn't bear to throw out.
  

I should add that DH and myself, and BIL and his partner, are comfortably off and not at all in any need of money. My concern is purely that this is not a practical solution to their circumstances, and is likely to prove another mistake (like the utility room) that doesn't solve the root problems and therefore necessitates a further move in future, to a more suitable place. I'd really like the advice of people, especially if you have relatives who have downsized or upsized at a similar age.

DH is thinking of buying MIL a copy of Marie Kondo's book as a way of raising what we believe to be the real issue here, which is the hoarding. Are we being unreasonable or failing to understand the issues they are facing, though?

[GoEasyPudding]

I think the books main point is about emotionally letting go of objects you don't need anymore. I haven't read it but I think it suggests thanking things when you declutter for what they brought to your life at that time.

You mention broken things like old music systems and beds. I wonder if this is the way to start the conversation? "Lets get rid of the obvious broken rubbish and find the treasure and things you will need in the new place."

In my opinion reading between the lines here, this though can only be done by the family. Who would want strangers in the house going through their things? I know I wouldn't.

It's very very hard work de-cluttering, both emotionally and physically and I think it would be beyond your PILs at this stage. You will have to help them to do it.

I would be advising them to instruct decorators for the bungalow that they already own, getting the essentials for that place and leaving behind everything. Or looking for a bigger bungalow? Selling this one?

This is really complicated and I sympathize.

[BlueMoonRising]

IMO Marie kondo's method is totally impractical with the amount of stuff that you are describing. They'd need to declutter first to get to a stage where they could group similar stuff together.

Would it not be better to open up a conversation and maybe volunteer to help?

[FreeButtonBee]

God, this is my future with pil. Although DH recently shocked them by saying if they died, he'd just lock up their house and not go back for 10 years cos we don't need the money and can't be doing with the hassle of sorting t all out.

I have been fairly brutal in my comments on their stuff/way of living. It's not for me and I hate it when they force it on me with the excuse of buying stuff for the children (seriously, no child needs 200 Thomas the tank engine books in one go, when they have never expressed an interest in TtTE!).

[BarbaraofSeville]

MK might not work anyway if MIL convinces herself that she loves the broken bed and it brings her joy.

[SoEverybodyDance]

Either they will have to do it soon or you will have to do it when they are forced to move out or move upstairs, bless them.

My DPs were the same. They didn't listen to our pleas and it ended in a crisis with them in a hotel and us siblings clearing out 40+ years of their junk possessions. We filled five big skips and it was time consuming and traumatic. We each still have a lots of it and my Dsis and I have just decided to do Marie Kondo ourselves to clear it!

In retrospect we should have been more upfront, more forceful and more active in helping them clear things earlier. At a time when they should have been downsizing, clearing out, giving away, throwing away, preparing for old age and creating a legacy for future generations after they'd gone, they were involved in petty squabbles and making and remaking decisions, many of which were ridiculous and we were tiptoeing around them trying to help. When they finally moved, it was like the dominos fell and within a year both had been diagnosed with dementia. Having not made decisions in advance about how they wanted to live in their old age, sadly they are less happy with the outcome but unable to change it now.

It was immensely frustrating and damaging for the whole family. I feel I missed the opportunity to have a second child because I spent so much time at theirs, trying to help, suggesting possibilities, offering to clear rooms, see houses etc... I don't blame them, just wish it had been different.

Marie Kondo is a good idea, but based on my experience, I'd suggest you be more upfront. You need to encourage them to make sensible decisions about downsizing based on their current and future health needs which will become paramount. It sounds as if PIL will need a wheelchair, hoist, adapted bath/shower, commode and a room big enough to get his wheelchair around his bed. If your MIL has problems managing the space now, it sounds like she will probably have issues managing PIL's disability and moving him around (from experience, she will need strength to do this and may do herself injuries just when she needs her mobility). They may have to think of carers of some sort, as time goes on carers may end up living in - spare bedrooms are useful in this scenario, but 7 is excessive. (My DPs have two bedrooms and two carers now, when we go to see them now we have to stay in a hotel - difficult with kids at Christmas etc).

Both your DPILs seem somewhat irrational about their situation - your FIL with his health concerns (which will only get worse as he ages and requires more interventions) and your MIL with her house/neighbour problems which might be avoidance as Fizrim has suggested. What they are facing individually and together is probably very frightening for them and they probably don't have the mental energy to cope with it effectively or the physically energy to clear things out.

My DPs were 10 years old than your DPILs when this happened so although this tale of woe might seem very gloomy, the point is, if your DPILs don't get these things sorted out now, the outcome will be very difficult later.

Good luck with it all.

[SoEverybodyDance]

Sorry 10 years older!

[Postchildrenpregranny]

I'm quite shocked how 'old' and set in their waus your PILs are OP-they are only 5 years older than I am .
I went through my MIL's flat when she went into care . She had moved from a 4 bed house 13 years before, and I rather naively assumed she'd had a de -clutter/throwout (theyd already moved from a house elsewhere several years before, and we'd certainly helped them with a big sort out then ) I was working ft with two young children so didn't get that involved as everything was packed and un- packed by removal co .(deceased FIL stuff had largely already gone) I couldn't believe how much there was-it took me a solid month of 4/5 hours a day,5 days a week to sort it all out .DH would have got a skip and dumped it , but I couldnt bear to .
Similarly, was trying to persuade elderly neighbour/friend to downsize and was 'working on her' to let me help declutter ,room by room (no relatives).Sadly she had a stroke and solicitor engaged House Clearance co (at vast expense) to empty house . I doubt anything went to charity, which rather grieved me .I think it is a hang over from the war to some extent .
It all put the fear of God into me and I vowed not to let my DDs face this .So after retirement I started on a massive sort out .I have done the 'sortout the keepsakes ,put in box ' thing and DDs and I have gone through everything in the loft recently . I am currently scanning photographs to reduce the mound of albums . DD1 was home over Christmas , cooking, and insists I have too much kitchen stuff (i've already thrown a lot away ) However I'm waiting for a new kitchen ... meantime might relegate more 'used rarely' stuff to shelves in the garage . I thought I'd been fairly ruthless but can see I need another trawl (just donated loads of old towels to a charity . Have enough left for hair dyeing and mopping up any minor floods..)
I think you have to be brutal . DD2 has told DH that she will be using his (beloved, huge, specialist collection ) books as fuel for a wood burning stove when he's gone. She will too .Tbf they are all properly 'housed' and not a mess as such .
Agree ,get existing bunglaow decorated and maybe adapted . Move them in with bare minimum and add stuff as and when they need it . And read the riot act if MIL starts collecting more . I would (on the quiet if need be) go through the old house and retrieve/sell (with their permission of course ) anything of value then just shut it up and get a house clearance agency in when they have to sell/die . But a skip would be better if theywill accept that . They might just let you get on with it but I certainly wouldnt want to lose control so (relatively) young .....

[vanillabeauty]

Not had time to read the whole thread, does the bungalow have space for a large outbuilding? Such as a timber shed/garage for all the stuff? I am a slight hoarder, it makes me feel secure. If it is close by (all the heavy stuff outside) this could reduce the risk of it creeping inside? Lots of shelves for 'bits', pictures on walls can make the place look cluttered, without floor clutter?

[notquitehuman]

I agree with LadyLuck81. Hoarding is a very serious condition. Hopefully your ILs just have clutter rather than being full on hoarders though. A proper hoarder won't let you throw things away. They will cry and scream and emotionally blackmail you just to keep the crap in their house. It's awful.

I have a friend whose DW is a full on hoarder. She agreed to move out for a couple of weeks and had deep cleaning specialists go in to scrub the place and throw several skips out. All was good for a few months, then she had a difficult time with her anxiety and started filling up the house again. They were broke, yet she still spent massive amounts in charity shops and collected stuff from free sites. The house looked like shit in a very short space of time.

Ideally, you need to address the root of the problem with your MIL and her anxiety/anger issues over the neighbours, her husbands health etc. It sounds like they could both use some emotional support more than anything. Maybe some charities aimed at older people would be able to point you in the right direction?

[allthatissolidmeltsintoair]

I just checked in, and wanted to thank all of you for some straight-talking and very sensible advice. I'm particularly grateful to those who have shared their own experiences, as this has raised several new issues I hadn't even thought about. And yes, DoJo is right - I was thinking of the book as a way of opening a conversation about the amount of 'stuff' they have, not as a solution!!

To answer the questions: yes, the bungalow next to GFIL's old one is on the market. And it's MIL rather than FIL who I think is the driving force behind this idea. They are both hoarders in different ways. MIL can't bear to get rid of furniture (anything old is an 'antique') and knickknacks. FIL can't bear to part with ancient paperbacks or photographs (there are literally hundreds of thousands of these, none of which will ever be looked at again). I had thought about encouraging them to do up the bungalow and move in, but I do fear that having both houses will just double the clutter!

I would be more than happy to help them to declutter. In fact, I rather enjoy tidying and organising, which is part of the reason I was looking for other opinions from those who are less minimalist in their approach! I itch to reorder things when I am there. There are three issues with this, however.

The first is that we live 5 hours' drive away.

That wouldn't be a problem in itself, but the second issue is that it takes my PIL a very, very long time to do even small things and to become extremely anxious and angry about being rushed. As postchildren perceptively notes, they are very 'old' for their age. I think they've always been old-fashioned, and this has been exacerbated by the fact that neither has worked since their 40s. They seem to have lost the capacity to make decisions or to execute them in anything like reasonable time. It takes literally hours just to get the out of the house. There's a very odd loss of lateral thinking too about the most efficient way to do a task too - for example, they will think that they have to get absolutely everything out of a room to move something at the back, rather than simply lifting it over other things. It's quite extreme - a job that would take DH and me about 5 minutes will take them well over a day. 10% of the delay is mobility issues, 90% is faffing. So I don't think we could be there for long enough to have a real impact - it would take literally weeks to get them to go through one room and frankly we don't have that kind of time because of work. There are also odd issues about only parting with stuff for money - they want to sell anything they get rid of, even though they are very wealthy, which adds a layer of complication to sorting things out. I can't work out whether this is an excuse, or whether they are searching for impediments to getting anything done!

The third issue is that they are incredibly controlling, even verging on bullying. MIL is utterly, completely bossy, so it would be a real role reversal for me to be helping her to organise things - she prefers to tell us how we should be living, and it can truly be a barrage of advice. They don't really interact with anyone, including their own kids, at an emotional level - it's all very formal. I don't know how she would cope with the greater levels of equality implicit in the idea of my helping her to clear things. I am willing to try, though! (And to be patient trying).

I think the idea of telling them that we will just be junking a lot of their stuff when they're gone is actually quite a good one. It would definitely shock them and it would disturb the idea that the ancient rickety bedstead is actually valuable and not just junk. I also wonder whether one tactic might be to get them to buy brand new furniture as a 'replacement' for the older stuff. They have a (hilariously incongruous) love of Swedish design. This is high risk, though! What if we just double the amount of stuff again?!?!?

[allthatissolidmeltsintoair]

Oh, and I should add - they are not nearly as bad at hoarding as some of the stories you guys are telling. My heart goes out to those of you dealing with the really severe cases - I can't imagine what it must be like, or how frustrated you must feel.

They don't keep litter or junk mail, though there are piles of newspapers which can't be thrown out until the recipes are cut out (even though MIL never cooks from these). It's more that, as only children of a larger extended family, they have inherited tons of furniture and ornaments from multiple people, all of which has been kept because every single item is Deeply Imbued with Emotional Significance (there are about 12 side tables in their fairly small front room, for instance, and you can't move for china figurines on every surface). As I mentioned, an entire utility room had to be built because they couldn't get rid of old mugs and glasses and multitudes of cutlery and kitchen knives. It's got much worse recently, because GFIL died two years ago and MIL (understandably) is struggling to let go of some of his old things.

It's more a situation of severe clutter that isn't compatible with mobility issues/a wheelchair, IYSWIM.

[snowinginthewoods]

OP you sound amazing and they are very lucky to have you is all that I can say. Some of these stories including yours are just so sad.

I wonder why people do this other than the post-war reasoning?

[MorrisZapp]

Feeling your pain OP. My parents are selling up due to divorce, but my mum is burying herself deeper and deeper in 'stuff' to delay the inevitable.

We all helped do a massive clearout last year, it was agonising.

Meanwhile she can't walk past a charity shop, and keeps moaning that we've thrown all her personal possessions.

She will almost certainly have to move to a two bed flat. Currently, she has a double garage full to the ceiling with stuff, in addition to a large house full. She absolutely will not budge on any of it.

Deep sigh.

[Peregrina]

Oh dear, I do know exactly where you are coming from. I don't necessarily think that it would work to move into the new house - they would just fill that with stuff, and the old one would remain stuffed full.

I don't just think it's to do with having lived through the war. DM was a full on hoarder and couldn't throw anything out, and used the war as an excuse. DF threw stuff out regularly but he lived through the war too!

The only thing which helped with my Mum was to say to her 'shall we sit down and tidy this cupboard?' Half of the stuff would go back, but you could cull a little. The only trouble was, we too, were four hours drive away and even one cupboard would take a few hours work, so we couldn't do it as often as necessary. It took weeks and weeks of work for me and SIL to clear their house when they died, of which 90% was Mum's stuff and of that about 90% was rubbish (or was by the time the moths, mice and damp had wrecked it).

l

[ChinUpChestOut]

OP I see your 12 side tables and raise you 3 coffee tables, 3 armchairs, 1 sofa, 5 side tables (3 of which stack within each other), 1 sofa table, 2 lamp standards, 1 display cabinet, 1 footstool, 2 bookcases, 1 chest of drawers and a piano in a VERY small front room. There's probably 1.5 square metres of space in the middle of the room.

I also tried the "What do you think I'm going to do with all your stuff when you die" approach. It got me nowhere. Then I tried "it's very unfair of you to leave us (me and my Dbrother) all this clearing out", the "fire hazard" approach, the "not safe for Mum" approach and the "you have a lot of money tied up in all this stuff. You could sell it - I'll help you and then you'll have the money" approach. That all failed too.

The thing is, as you remarked up-post earlier, these are war/post-war babies and they grew up without ever throwing anything away. The enormity of the project is probably now overwhelming for them, even if you offer to help. The only time I have been successful is when Mum and I agree to do one small cupboard, we physically go through everything and I personally take the stuff out of the house to a charity shop. If I leave it there, it ends up back in the cupboard. I suggest you try that approach, but bear in mind that getting rid of stuff for them is psychologically difficult and causes distress if it's just thrown away - particularly if it's without their knowledge at the time. It seems to help a little if they know it's going to be re-used, or someone else can "enjoy" it now.

[allthatissolidmeltsintoair]

Hahahaha chinup - if my BIL wasn't very, very gay I would ask you if you were my SIL!! It sounds like the same room. Only my PIL also have a grandfather clock that dongs mercilessly all night.

Seriously, it helps to know that I'm not the only one going through this. Morris, Peregrina and all the others in the same boat - thank you for sharing your experiences with me. I think starting small, however long it takes, is probably the key.

The post-war thing is interesting. Kondo has a theory that you have to be taught how to tidy, and I wonder if this is a generation that never really learned because their parents didn't have that much, and feared losing what they did have. Perhaps this new generation, perfectly placed to take advantage of the boom in consumables in the 1950s, just didn't have that knowledge of how to deal with a plenitude of things? Maybe some of them learned as they went along (I wonder if there's a relationship with liking more minimal, less Victorian interiors?) while others just didn't ever pick it up?

I don't know though - my mother is only a few years younger than PIL and is extremely tidy and organised. But the age gap belies a huge culture gap - she and my father swung in the 60s, dropped out, became hippies, then had me which put a stop to all the fun . My PIL's peak rock and roll experience was The Shadows.

[ChinUpChestOut]

I think your Grandfather clock might trump DParents' cuckoo clock .

I also think this post-war thing is relevant, although I have no analysis to offer. My PILs, also post war era, but from another country, have been able to be much more disciplined about keeping on top of things. My DS's GPs, 10 years younger than DParents, have been ruthless, and moved into a flat in their 60s, and are planning a move again, now just into their 70s. I live with as little clutter as I can manage, and get upset if things aren't put away properly, so they aren't just stacked or stuffed in a drawer somewhere. It's either useful and kept, or put in the charity shop bag, of which there is always one on the go.

[Oliversmumsarmy]

if money is no object and they own both properties could you suggest they do the bungalow up for them to move into, taking only what they need and leaving the rest of the stuff at the other house. Then suggesting they sort through what they have left behind.

i wouldn't mention the words, clear or throw away but keep it along the lines of repacking to create more space, or looking for those treasures they haven't seen in years.

[Oliversmumsarmy]

DMIL is 90 and hates clutter. Leave anything in one place for 2 mins and she has tidied it away into the bin

[SushiAndTheBanshees]

My personal opinion, as a child of parents younger than your PIL but who are brutally honest with themselves about their own mortality (awfully depressing at times), is that hoarding is a way of NOT facing up to their own mortality. Of course, they know what's coming, especially as GFIL only passed away a couple of years ago, and this probably explains the stubbornness to address the matter. But somehow there's an equation between holding onto stuff meaning life will go on, and a chance that a need for all this stuff will arise. Let's face it, at their age we too might struggle to bear the finality of GFIL not being here, would struggle to throw his stuff away as it would make us address what his life was for, what his legacy and memory is, and the depressing reality that it wouldn't be much beyond the memory his loved ones have of him. For some people that's not enough.

My parents, as I say, are brutal. They have just renovated their house and have around 20% of the stuff they had before. They are certainly looking ahead, head on. It's a different approach.

I don't think you can make somebody see things in any given way, though. It's deeply personal, a profound philosophical thing. It's really not about the stuff.

[Cheby]

I think KM could be useful here. It's been useful for me. I'm not a hoarder, but I find it very hard to let things go. I think if I was single or if I hadn't knocked my PND on the head I might be worse than I am.

I haven't read book yet, but I understand be basics and I've been hanging around in the FB groups.

We've done some decluttering recently as we unpacked the final boxes from our house move. I've found it so much easier to throw things away when bearing in mind the principle of 'does this spark joy' when considering an item.

It's honestly been a big change for me. I'm not sure if I'm ready to read the book and do it properly yet, but it's meant I was able to throw away clothes (that don't fit!) that I've been carting around in storage boxes for the last 10 years, for example.

Maybe if you can explain the principle to your MIL it would be a good starting point.

As an aside, my grandmother is a true hoarder and my mother's solution appears to be to remove things from her house and put them in her own, mine or my sister's house (as my Gran is ok if they are going to help others). My gran doesn't forget the items and we are regularly asked about them. So this process is really just moving the problem, rather than fixing it.

[Werksallhourz]

What about suggesting to PIL that they ask for a quote from a moving firm and an assessment of the number of boxes required, and the associated cost, of the firm packing up their stuff?

This could be a good way of helping them to realise the implications of the amount of stuff they own -- that it would all need packing up and unpacking at the other end and the amount of time that would take, that it would require a huge number of boxes that would need to be stored somewhere while the rest of the packing continued, that it would need take more than three days to move all the stuff to a new property.

When faced with the notion of packing up all the stuff, they may accept that some of it just needs to go.

[onecurrantbun1]

When DH's parents died, he kept everything they'd owned. It included several months worth of newspapers (FIL had his paper delivered and DH kept them all for him to read when he got better, then when he didn't get better he couldn't bear to throw them away) It was extreme - and clearly a symptom of his mental health at the time. He was only a teenager when he lost them both. 5 years later when we'd met and decided to marry, I helped him move to a rental houses it was far, far easier for him to separate from the stuff once he had a new home. As it happens we sold the house as seen at auction - closed lot, so no viewings - and left all the stuff in situ - auction house completely unfazed.

Given my experiences I would say moving into the bungalow but keeping the house on "for storage" may be the way forward to allow PILs to begin to seperare from a lifetime of memories. After a few months they will probably be totally shocked at the crap treasures they kept, and if not they haven't lost anything

[Peregrina]

I certainly think there is something in needing to be taught to be tidy, but I am not sure that it's the whole story. Some people are just natural hoarders. It reminds me when my Office had a major move. We were allowed one big box each for our personal bits and pieces. To get to the point, within a year or so of moving, some people had desks, cupboards, space around their desks, absolutely awash with stuff. They can't have brought it with them - they had just acquired it post the move.

In a work place you could make it a disciplinary offence to keep stuff in such a mess. At home, it's just so much more difficult, and after all it's their home and not yours. Somehow, you have to sell the advantage. With DM we managed to persuade her to have a cleaning lady, with a bit of subterfuge. If we had just said, why not get a cleaner, she would have ummed and ahed and said no, or she would think about it and then done nothing. In the end a friend of Mum's said that her cleaning lady was very good, but would appreciate a few more hours than the friend could offer, so could my Mum oblige? This approach worked with Mum. There was a limit as to how much the cleaner could do, but it did mean that the absolute worst of the mess was kept in check.