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AIBU?

To love the idea of scrapping all benefits and just giving everyone £500 a month

431 replies

DyslexicScientist · 08/12/2015 11:33

Like Finland are going to do.

Would get rid of all the east that goes on with means testing and would cost about the same.

Would be much fairer as the current system does discriminate against certain demographics.

OP posts:
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TrueBlueYorkshire · 08/12/2015 14:01

This would work in an resource based economy but would quickly degenerate in a service economy such as in the United Kingdom.

Not to sound cruel but the UK economy works because there is an incentive to work. Effectively for the vast majority of people you will end up with just scraping by with an ok lifestyle (as good as modern productivity will allow). Then you will have people on benefits pretty much educated, feed and housed and no more.

An example, you are a high productivity employee who makes 1000 widgets a day compared to 500. You can either pay more tax to supplement this scheme or pay less tax and hire a cleaner for your house allowing you more time to work at your high productivity job. Which do you think is better for our society? People like to crow on about consumerism, but if you want your widgets then you need to push for high productivity.

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SilverOldie2 · 08/12/2015 14:04

How about once you become an adult you become self sufficient, responsible for yourself, work for your own money and most importntly, live according to your means. That would mean the people who really need it, ie those with disabilities, can be paid what they need.

I think a citizen's wage is an absurd idea and its about time people stopped expecting others to work hard and pay taxes so they don't have to.

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VulcanWoman · 08/12/2015 14:06

Not sure if they still do but Kuwait's Government guarantees every citizen whether they work or not an annual income of £30,000. Oil!

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Bettercallsaul1 · 08/12/2015 14:07

Of course, the amount involved wouldn't have to be £500 - that's just the amount they've fixed on in Finland. We could choose a more realistic sum (after considerable debate) to reflect the cost of living here. But there would have to be majority agreement on the idea of doing this first, starting with a full and clear explanation of the purpose behind it and the mechanics of how it would work.

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Theoretician · 08/12/2015 14:13

I always find the lack of imagination on radical proposal like this so depressing. For example the countless people who have posted about well-off people not needing an extra £500. Surely only a tiny amount of common sense would tell you that the system wouldn't be unaffordable if it were true they were going to be better off. If properly implemented, the vast majority of people would have net income not very different than before, regardless of whether their income was originally from work or benefits. The aim isn't to vastly change anyone's income, it's to simplify admin and reduce disincentives to work.

In practise the least-admin way to administer this would be something like for people with incomes from one source of more than £500x12 to have a personal allowance that exempts them from that amount of tax. All earned money would effectively be taxed at 40%-50% for everyone, so people who claimed the CI directly would have no personal allowance and those who had secure and lucrative employment would have a personal allowance that "gave" them the same amount of money through their tax code.

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Theoretician · 08/12/2015 14:18

And in case anyone thinks 40% is a high rate of tax for what are currently basic-rate taxpayers, employees in the basic-rate band are currently taxed at a marginal rate a fraction under 40%, if you calculate their net salary as a proportion of what the employer pays out, including employers NI. So basic-rate taxpayers are essentially taxed at nearly 40% right now, if their income is from employment. (There is a secondary issue here because people with other kinds of income are taxed at closer to the 20% most basic-rate payers fondly imagine they are paying.)

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redstrawberry10 · 08/12/2015 14:18

I think a citizen's wage is an absurd idea and its about time people stopped expecting others to work hard and pay taxes so they don't have to.

the problem is that you can work hard and still not make ends meet. Our cost of living is far too high compared to wages, housing being the most out of control. I am all for eliminating welfare, but you can only do that if people can access housing on those wages.

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Theoretician · 08/12/2015 14:19

"would be unaffordable" in my earliest post.

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SouthYarraYobbo · 08/12/2015 14:19

Yes and I'm always amazed at the amount of people who want something for nothing Hmm

The same people who are outraged that the NHS is going bankrupt. But yes, to save on admin costs lets just give everyone £500 a month.

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Bubblesinthesummer · 08/12/2015 14:25

£500 is less than the highest rate dla/pip.

^ this.

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BadLad · 08/12/2015 14:39

According to this source, the population of the UK is about 64.5 million

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33266792


£500 per month for each of those works out at £387 billion per year.


According to this source, pensions + welfare spending in 2014 was £200 billion.

www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/year_spending_2014UKbn_15bc1n#ukgs302


That's quite a shortfall to make up. How is it going to be paid for? In the past I've asked this and been told that "the admin savings would add up to quite a bit, and we could make those multinationals pay tax - job done," which seems optimistic to me.

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williaminajetfighter · 08/12/2015 14:50

I think we should be working towards a culture with LESS, not more state, involvement in our lives. I don't want to create a culture where everyone expects £ from the state without thinking where it comes from. I'm always surprised that this is such a radical idea when I assume that most adults would normally want more not less of a nanny state.

I also think people have lost the concept that the money does actually have to come from somewhere and that the govt doesn't just print more money when it needs to (although it has recently!). As a country we are already massively in debt... but sure let's adopt a programme that could potentially get us into more debt.

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redstrawberry10 · 08/12/2015 15:16

That's quite a shortfall to make up. How is it going to be paid for?

presumably it would be per adult.

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mollie123 · 08/12/2015 15:26

According to this source, the population of the UK is about 64.5 million
but the only ones to receive a citizens income would be adults (over 18 )

  • so a lot less than 65 million ?
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suzannecaravaggio · 08/12/2015 15:35

www.basicincome.org/news/2013/02/opinion-the-one-minute-case-for-a-basic-income/

“What? You think the government should just give everybody money?! Regardless of whether they worked for it or not? Regardless of whether they even need it or not? Why do you think that would be a good idea?”

You are out in public. It just came up that you support a basic income guarantee, and someone just hit you with the above incredulous questions. Unless you are on a college campus or at an academic conference, you can probably expect your listeners’ attention to last roughly one minute before they are either intrigued and ask more questions, or they tune you out completely. What do you say?

Well, obviously there are a lot of different reasons why people support a basic income, and so your answer will depend in part on why you personally support a basic income. And it will also depend in part on what you think your listeners’ core beliefs are, and what may therefor persuade them. So there cannot be just one right answer.

With that in mind, I offer the following eleven suggestions.

All of the following arguments are my own derivative summaries and reinterpretations of other people’s ideas. The Keynesian and Georgist arguments are derived from the writings of their namesakes. The market utilitarian case is derived from the ideas of Milton Friedman, and the independentarian case is derived from the ideas of Karl Widerquist. I am also particularly indebted to Widerquist for inspiring the fairness case. None of the other arguments are original, but I have sadly forgotten the individuals from whom they are borrowed.

So please feel free to use any or all of them as you see fit to promote the abolition of poverty. They can be used in person or in speeches, in blog posts or comments, in Congressional hearings or your Facebook status, or anywhere else you see fit. Also feel free to modify them as necessary.

And yes, I have timed myself speaking all of them, and I was able to speak each of them at a normal speaking pace in one minute or less.

The one minute fairness case for a basic income guarantee:
Property is a social construct legally enforced by the government. If all people are considered equal, then absent any other considerations, each person should have an equal amount of property. So material equality should be the default. In a free market economy with a basic income at or below the highest sustainable rate, those who choose to live off of the basic income are not living off of the work of others. Rather, they are living off of less than their “fair share” of property and allowing the extra to be used by those who choose to work.

The one minute market utilitarian case for a basic income:
The free market is the greatest generator of wealth ever devised. Money is the most effective means of socially producing utility, as it allows each individual to obtain whatever needs and wants they subjectively require. However, one dollar in the hands of a poorer person produces greater utility than a dollar in the hands of a richer person, because the richer person can fulfill more of their more important needs and wants with the rest of their money than the poorer person can. So the transfer of money from a richer person to a poorer person increases overall utility. The government is incompetent at running people’s lives or regulating the economy, but the one thing it can do effectively is mail out checks. A basic income is most effective means of transferring money from the richer to the poorer with the least government interference and the least work disincentive. The natural limit on the amount of the basic income is the point where the work disincentive from the required taxes reduces wealth the point where the basic income would have to be reduced.

The one minute Keynesian case for a basic income:
Keynesian economics works when implemented correctly. But properly implementing Keynesian economics is politically very difficult. It requires politicians who are willing to spend a lot of money on stimulus when the government appears broke, and then turn around and become deficit hawks when the government is rolling in cash and everyone wants a piece of the pie. A basic income funded primarily from an income tax would become a massive institutionalized entitlement expected by the population whose cost would automatically increase and decrease in direct opposition to the economy. As unemployment rises, the number of net receivers goes up, and as unemployment falls, so will the number of net receivers. Keynes once famously said that the government should pay people to dig holes and fill them back up again. But why waste people’s time? Anyone who sits on the couch and watches TV while living off of a basic income will contribute as much to society as the hole diggers. And anyone who does anything more productive will create a net good for society.

The one minute human rights case for a basic income:
Poverty is not a natural tragedy like cancer or earthquakes. Poverty is a human caused tragedy like slavery or government oppression. Slavery is caused by societal recognition of humans as property. Government oppression is caused by governments punishing people for their beliefs or characteristics, and without due process of law. Poverty is caused by property laws that deny some people access to necessities. These types of tragedies can be ended by recognizing that humans have the right not to be subjected to tortuous conditions imposed by other humans. Humans have a right not to live in slavery. Humans have a right to be free of government oppression. And humans have a right not to live in poverty. A basic income is not a strategy for dealing with poverty; it it the elimination of poverty. The campaign for a basic income is a campaign for the abolition of poverty. It is the abolitionist movement of the 21st century.

The one minute Georgist case for a basic income:
Property is a product of creation, not of mere use. “I made this.” confers property rights, “Tag! It’s mine!” does not. Things that exist as a product of your labor must be yours, and for anyone else to appropriate them is to make you their slave. Land and natural resources, however, are not the products of people, but of nature or God. They are gifts to all of humanity. Individual property in land and natural resources may be practical or useful, but it is still theft. Utility might justify this theft, but compensation is still required. As the appropriation was done without consent, the compensation must be in the form that offers the greatest choice of use to the victims. That form is cash. The most efficient arrangement for payment is for the takers to pay the full rental or use value to a single entity which can then divide the proceeds equally among the population. Taxes are the tribute I pay to you for displacing you from land, the basic income is your dividend.

The one minute transhumanist case for a basic income:

Two hundred thousand years ago humans lived in hunter-gather societies. About 10 thousand years ago, humans began to live in agricultural societies, and then about 300 years ago, humans began to live in industrial societies. Since 30 to 50 years ago, we have lived in a service society. Theoretically, the last economic stage of society is a leisure society, where most people either work in the artistic or scientific fields, or do not work at all. So far, each phase has lasted only a small fraction of the time of the previous phase. If that pattern holds, service societies should last less than two generations, a time period nearing its end. Right now, worker productivity is advancing faster than the need for workers, and robots are inhabiting labs in research hospitals and at DARPA. It is time to prepare for a society in which we simply do not need everyone to work. A basic income will be needed to provide a living for people, and to provide customers for business.

The one minute conservative case for a basic income:
The welfare state may not be the society we would have created, but it has been here for 4 generations, people have come to expect and rely on it, and it would be extremely disruptive to society to get rid of it. But while we may not be able to get rid of the welfare state, we can reform it. The current welfare state necessitates an immense and expensive bureaucracy, it is prohibitively complicated for some of its intended beneficiaries to navigate, it puts bureaucrats in charge of the lives of the poor, it creates perverse incentives for people to avoid work and to remain poor, and it arbitrarily allows some people to fall through the cracks. A basic income would correct all of these problems. A basic income is simple to administer, treats all people equally, retains all rewards for hard work, savings, and entrepreneurship, and trusts the poor to make their own decisions about what to do with their money, taking these decisions out of the hands of paternalistic elitist politicians.

The one minute feminist case for a basic income:
Patriarchy has put the world’s wealth in the hands of men, prevented women from being professionals and entreprenuers, forced poor women into dead-end second-class labor jobs, and forced all women to become unpaid domestic servants and caretakers of the young, elderly, and disabled of their families. Women have been forced to be financially dependent on fathers or husbands who are often abusive. A basic income would change all of this. A basic income would be a massive transfer of wealth from men to women. Women would be free of financial dependence on any man, and the young, elderly, and disabled would all be fully supported. Women could afford to leave abusive husbands, those who chose to be caretakers would be fully compensated, and no woman would be forced into a dead-end job, and would instead be able to pursue her own financial goals as she saw fit.

The one minute (right) libertarian case for a basic income:
While it may have been theoretically possible to acquire property in a just manner soon after humans evolved, none was. Every square inch of inhabited land on earth can trace its title back to someone who acquired the land by force. All land titles on Earth are soaked in blood. And not just land titles. Thanks to past government spending, targeted tax breaks, intellectual property, corporate charters, slavery, and meddling regulations, no property or wealth can be said to have been justly acquired. If we assume that those who have the least are greatest net victims, a basic income would provide the best possible rectification with the least government control, producing the least unjust system of property distribution possible in the real world.

The one minute liberal case for a basic income:
A basic income would correct or ameliorate many inequities and inefficiencies inherent in market capitalism. The wages of unskilled and semi-skilled workers would rise as those who enjoy and are good at such work will no longer have to compete against those who are forced to seek such work out of financial necessity. The wages of highly skilled workers will fall as more people are able to take the time necessary to gain the skills to compete for those jobs, lowering the cost of legal, financial, and health care services. A guaranteed income will soften the blow to workers displaced by advancing technology and the creative destruction of the market. Job seekers will be able to take the time necessary to find work that is the best fit for them, increasing efficiency in the distribution of labor. And entrepreneurship will flourish as those wanting to start their own businesses will have an income to survive on during the long lean times that typically come when building a new enterprise.

The one minute independetarian case for a basic income:
Property rights are not natural, they are a social convention. But they give each individual freedom, as the essence of property is the right to exclude others, to have a place where no one else has dominion over you. The first rule should be that each individual has inalienable ownership over her own body and mind. But carving up all of nature outside of bodies leaves some people unnaturally without the means to obtain the necessities of life. Therefore each person must also have an inalienable property right to these necessities. Society owes you a living, because society is preventing you from foraging the land to obtain the necessities of life on your own. Society could rectify this problem by letting individuals forage for necessities wherever they wish, or by giving them the land they need to survive on their own, or by providing these necessities directly. But in modern societies, the most efficient way to provide for these necessities is with direct cash payments, a basic income.

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caroldecker · 08/12/2015 15:39

The whole thing becomes circular - you could set it at £1m a month and set a 99.9% tax rate (not done the exact sums) to pay for it - the admin savings disappear when you have to adjust the tax paid by different groups (disabled, single parents, large families etc). Instead of admin to to identify who gets benefit, you have the same admin to determine who pays what tax rate.
It does also act as a disincentive to work - as shown wherever tried. The Canadian system also stopped because they ran out of money to fund it.

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BadLad · 08/12/2015 15:57

presumably it would be per adult.

I can't see it working then, if a couple with no children get £1000, while a single parent with four kids gets £500.

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minifingerz · 08/12/2015 16:15

I like the sound of it.

And comfortably off people who voted Conservative on the basis that nobody should have benefits they don't need could donate theirs back to the government. ;-)

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DyslexicScientist · 08/12/2015 16:47

Thats a really interesting post Suzanne. I hope some more read it and give this idea a longer thought.

OP posts:
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redstrawberry10 · 08/12/2015 16:52

I can't see it working then, if a couple with no children get £1000, while a single parent with four kids gets £500.

if every baby brings in a minimum wage adult income, there is a massive incentive to have babies.

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Stormtreader · 08/12/2015 17:05

Im single, although I'd love not to be, all of my friends are coupled up.
If I lost my job, would I have to club together with other singletons in a house share? I dont see it being livable without an absolute minimum of a 2 person income of £1k per month, rent alone would be more than the one person allowance.

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caroldecker · 08/12/2015 17:21

Suzanne

The one minute fairness case for a basic income guarantee:
Income, wealth and property are not the same the same thing - very little modern wealth comes from land and minerals

The one minute market utilitarian case for a basic income:
Modern welfare states redistribute income - this does not unless it takes it back off the rich person, so pointless

The one minute Keynesian case for a basic income:
modern welfare systems do exactly this - it did not in the 30's because we did not have a welfare state. Government's overpsend in the good times because they spend it on other things, not because they can't

The one minute human rights case for a basic income:
Poverty is a natural position for all animals - humans have no special right to be fed - think hunter gatherers.

The one minute Georgist case for a basic income:
see first point.

The one minute transhumanist case for a basic income:

Bollocks

The one minute conservative case for a basic income:

reform the current welfare state

The one minute feminist case for a basic income:
So women rely on a patriachal government

The one minute (right) libertarian case for a basic income:

point 1 again

The one minute liberal case for a basic income:
So can't be arsed live off the rest of us

The one minute independetarian case for a basic income:

point 1 again

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ScOffasDyke · 08/12/2015 17:24

It might work in Finland, which has a very small population. The cost for the UK would be enormous.

Incidentally, the cost of living is significantly higher in Finland, so I presume that they would pay housing benefit, disability benefits, child benefits etc on top of the £500 per month.

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DyslexicScientist · 08/12/2015 17:40

if every baby brings in a minimum wage adult income, there is a massive incentive to have babies.

Exactly. The problems with the current system is it incentives having children, working part time if your on a low wage (and have children) and disincentives saving money.

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BadLad · 08/12/2015 17:44

if every baby brings in a minimum wage adult income, there is a massive incentive to have babies

True. So what will a single parent with, say, four small kids get? Just the £500?

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