to think drs who recently complained about salaries should be willing to try to get money out of non uk tax payers who use the NHS

[Scoobydoo8]

It really annoys me that drs won't charge people for health care because they want to be seen as mr niceguy or something to do with their hippocratic oath or whatever it's damn unfair that anyone can come to the uk for treatment.

There have been many threads recently complaining about the new low salaries for junior doctors, which were justified, but to then whinge about having to enforce rules to reduce the misuse of the NHS by foreigners make me feel - serves you right.

They claim that it isn't worth trying to reclaim the money but look guys, if people think they will never be charged they will come in their droves, if they think they might be nailed for the cost they might stay at home - obvious imo.

[merrymouse]

'commissioners and providers' are hospitals and trusts, not people who happen to be working for them, whether as a nurse, a radiologist, a doctor or a receptionist.

[gwenneh]

Why don't they just adopt the US system or make sure that non-EU Nationals enter the UK with valid medical insurance as part of any visa?

Because the US system is a nightmare. I lived in America for most of my life and I will campaign to my last breath to prevent the NHS taking on some of the horrific aspects of what goes on there.

Non-EU nationals already pay an NHS surcharge -- £150 per year for students and £200 per year for all other visa categories.

[Ripeningapples]

Does anyone know what percentage of doctors and nurses work full time?

[sashh]

to think drs who recently complained about salaries should be willing to try to get money out of non uk tax payers who use the NHS

So children then? SAHP?

Or do you mean foreigners? Ever heard of the NHS surcharge?

And we also have reciprocal agreements with other countries, if you are on dialysis you can go on holiday to Spain and receive dialysis there.

And have you ever heard on an 'honorary consultant'? These are doctors, often from Sri Lanka who come to work in the NHS and are paid by their own government.

Most people who work in the NHS have no idea how much or little the treatment they give costs.

Say you turn up at a and e with chest pain, one of the things you would expect would be an ECG, the machine is already in the a and e department along with staff who know how to operate it and how to read it.

The tangible cost is for the electricity to power the machine, the paper printout and the disposable electrodes - a cost of pennies.

The time taken for the member of staff to do the test and read the ECG - about 5 mins.

The cost of billing the test? Probably costs more than the test has cost.

The big money is in the training of the staff, but are you going to charge more if a Dr does the ECG or a cardiographer? The cardiographer is probably more skilled but earns less.

[Ripeningapples]

Actually allowances are also required for the equipment's capital depreciation, the capital required for the hospital premises, porterage and admin services. The overall cost is far greater than just the clinical time and the paper print out. It is a significant issue that the NHS is not using those resources effectively far too often.

The cost of training raises a very important point. Not one of the GPs at my pra rice is full time, yet thousands and thousands were spent training them. I do think this is a problem. They witter about their overwork yet skip off to do a couple of clinics each at the local private hospitals. They use the private sector as it suits them yet refused to refer my DD to a clinical psychologist or specialist counsellor, privately, when CAMHS wouldn't offer adequate or acceptable care. It isn't acceptable.

[merrymouse]

Not one of the GPs at my pra rice is full time, yet thousands and thousands were spent training them

Do medical students not pay tuition fees? Do student doctors not have to work? Do all doctors do work in the private sector? Are all GP's part-time? Don't graduates from other degree courses work in the private sector?

And how does any of that relate to government decisions about NHS treatment of foreign nationals and administrative and management decisions about how to chase debt?

You might as well ask somebody in the hospital canteen not to serve food to foreigners.

[Ripeningapples]

The doctors qualifying before 2012 certainly didn't. I am contracted to work for a public sector organisation - I couldn't contractually do a bit on the side for a competitor.

Yes it is diverging from the argument but there is much in the NHS that doesn't quite sit right bit which we are not allowed to criticise.

[Iwasbornin1993]

Ridiculous.

[Ripeningapples]

Would you care to define the ridiculous please. I assume that was aimed at me.

[Scoobydoo8]

www.gov.uk/government/news/funding-arrangements-for-medical-and-dental-student-tuition-fees-for-2013-2015-and-nhs-bursary-funding-arrangements-from-2012

Undergraduates on the five/six year medical and dental programme
In years 1 to 4, eligible students will receive a loan from the Student Loans Company to cover the full cost of tuition fees

From the fifth year of study, the NHS Bursary will pay eligible students’ tuition fees up to £9,000.

So it looks like they don't pay tuition fees.

[Mistigri]

Scooby did you read what you just posted? They get loans for 4 years, a bursary for ONE year thereafter.

However, the fees that junior doctors pay for the training courses that are necessary for professional development generally come out of their own salaries.

[SockQueen]

Of course medical students pay tuition fees, just the same as most other students (nursing and other AHPs don't - they get NHS bursary for the full course, whereas medical and dental students only get it for years 5 and above). I graduated in 2009 and paid fees, though fortunately only ~£1100 pa, as I started before the first round of top-up fees were introduced. Just because they, like every other student, get a tuition fees loan, does not mean they don't pay fees!

[sugar21]

Junior Doctors also have to pay indemnity insurance, whiich I think is quite a lot of money

[MammaTJ]

why can't the nurses that they train at the local hosp/uni near here staff the hosps. Are we training too few? Are they all moving to Australia etc? Are they overworked and won't do it? Why???

This is exactly what happens. Hospitals order the nurses they predict they will need in three years time from the unis, also allowing for dropouts me. The trouble is, they get people applying from all over. The ones that move from home to uni then have to travel a long way to placement, or, like me, have to travel a long way to uni. Some do move to Australia, some leave. Our cohort went from 340 down to 284 in between starting first year and starting second year. It is hard, the hardest thing I have ever tried. EVERYONE is stressed and overworked when on placement, that is everyone! It is no wonder people leave.

In years 1 to 4, eligible students will receive a loan from the Student Loans Company to cover the full cost of tuition fee.From the fifth year of study, the NHS Bursary will pay eligible students’ tuition fees up to £9,000.
So it looks like they don't pay tuition fees.

They DO pay tuition fees, they are just made to have a loan and pay it back later! Yr 5, that is after 4 years of study, they get help with it.

[MammaTJ]

My BIL came to visit from the USA. He was an American citizen. He became ill, had to be admitted to hospital and sadly died. You can be damn sure that his insurance paid out and paid out big! ITU costs an absolute fortune! They also paid for an autopsy to find out the cause of death.

[TalkinPease]

The UK has imported Nurses, Doctors, Orderlies, cleaners, technicians and everything else to keep the NHS running for the last 50 years
that's not going to change as the indigenous UK population ages.

[Iwasbornin1993]

Ripening - it was directed at the OP

[Collaborate]

On the subject of how much it costs to train doctors, including tuition, living expenses/lost production, and clinical placement, the BMA gives the following figures (from this, a Word document).
Foundation Officer 1 £269,527
Foundation Officer 2 £294,164
Registrar Group £343,451
Associate Specialist £383,477
GP £ 498,489
Consultants £564,112

[Ripeningapples]

Should there be so many gp's working less than three days pw if it costs that much for them to train? Isn't that much of the problem and the cause of much I the "waste".

[bringmelaughter]

Yes better to lose many of your female workforce who are more likely to want to drop days while children are small but who are likely to return to full time later.

[Ripeningapples]

It isn't just the female doctors at our surgery. It's the men too. And no, they haven't returned to full time. The only doctors who do more than four two hour clinics each week are the relatively newly qualified ones. Other professions don't get away with this to the same extent and maintain places on the career ladder. They also don't get trained using public money.

[BeckerLleytonNever]

Im British born and bred. But I worked abroad for a couple of years.

I came back for a couple of weeks to see friends and family. One day I fell and broke my arm.

Was treated in a NHS hospital and was charged for my time and treatment!I asked why, I was registered in the UK, but they said I was living abroad at the time and so was charged.

so....how come others like the OPs talking about manage to get free treatment ?

[TalkinPease]

They don't.
Its tabloid hysteria.

As I said up thread, British people have no idea how deeply unfriendly British Immigration can be if they think there is any problem with you or your paperwork.
Being locked in a room with one way mirrors on all 4 walls knowing you are being watched and listened to is not fun.
Even when you know that time will sort everything as you have an absolute right to enter the country.

[wonkylegs]

All the drs in my husbands speciality at his hospital work FT, and most hospital docs I know are FT.
GPs that work part time at your surgery may also have other commitments (other clinics/centres, training, research) is not as simple as you can't see them so they aren't working.

[bringmelaughter]

How sad that this is how you feel about your colleagues ripeningapples. All the clinicians I know (Drs, AHPs, nurses) work bloody hard.

Those who work part time often end up doing full time hours and again by the time you count staying late to care for patients, personal education, exams, teaching others, attending meetings, taking calls for advice when not at work, etc.

As pointed out previously doctors do have to pay tuition fees for 4 years when students and also have to pay for exams after their degree has been completed.

I suspect that you haven't a clue how much extra work the Drs at your surgery do just as many of my colleagues have no idea about the extra hours I do, both at my place of work and when the kids have gone to bed (am not a Dr but am clinical).