to think drs who recently complained about salaries should be willing to try to get money out of non uk tax payers who use the NHS

[Scoobydoo8]

It really annoys me that drs won't charge people for health care because they want to be seen as mr niceguy or something to do with their hippocratic oath or whatever it's damn unfair that anyone can come to the uk for treatment.

There have been many threads recently complaining about the new low salaries for junior doctors, which were justified, but to then whinge about having to enforce rules to reduce the misuse of the NHS by foreigners make me feel - serves you right.

They claim that it isn't worth trying to reclaim the money but look guys, if people think they will never be charged they will come in their droves, if they think they might be nailed for the cost they might stay at home - obvious imo.

[Scoobydoo8]

Echt constructive comment.

Well, as I said ealrier let's all sob over those nasty cruel tories who are destroying our health service, privatising a magnificent behemoth (not in my experience) and continue down the slippery slope of reduced quality of service. We'll continue slagging off staff who fail, sacking those not up to it whether it's due to understaffing or any other reason. The sacred cow must stagger on, foreign patients don't cost it much.

[maybebabybee]

This whole hysteria over 'health tourism' is popular right now because it fits in to the whole mentality at the moment of blaming 'foreigners' for all our problems. Can't get a job? Bloody foreigners. Can't get a school place? Bloody foreigners. Waiting list for an operation too long? Bloody foreigners.

There's a massive undertone of racism in the UK at the moment and I find it very disturbing as the daughter of a 'bloody foreigner'. My Dad came here in the eighties having been tortured and imprisoned in his home country. The idea that some petty minded middle England-er might be moaning about his right to see a doctor without paying so they can have a slightly shorter wait at A&E makes my blood boil to be frank. He didn't have a penny to his name.

There are some "foreigners" who take the piss, not that it's got anything to do with the fact they're foreign. I personally would rather we had the system help people who need it than risk penalising them because we're intent on punishing the minority who abuse it.

If you want to talk about a group of people taking the piss, why not direct your ire at the government?

To sum up: YABU. HTH.

[Scoobydoo8]

And while everyone is screaming hate at the Gov changes are being made about which they have had no say.

Divide and conquer def worked in the NHS.

[merrymouse]

Your numbers could be completely correct (still not sure of the relevance of the 35 million) but it is still the job of finance and admin staff and potentially lawyers and debt collection firms to bill and collect money, just as in a private hospital.

Equally junior doctors don't generally run payroll, cook hospital food or carry out grounds maintenance.

[twofingerstoGideon]

are you the handful of people in the UK happy with the NHS?????

^^This is where you lost your argument.

[x2boys]

they do check dont they my cousin lives in the middle east and visits her parents for about three months every other year her son [born in new zealand ] now living in the middle east on one visit had an ear infection he was about five the gp wouldnt treat him untill my cousin paid.

[wishingchair]

Why should the doctors implement it?????! Do you seriously think the doctors are the only staff in a hospital? That they do the recruitment, payroll, accounts, purchasing, maintenance, etc etc?? You do realise the NHS employs thousands of back office staff to do this stuff don't you?

That's where your argument makes absolutely no sense at all.

[Alfieisnoisy]

Scooby, are you a plant from Britain First.

Yeah bloody foreigners eh?

Does that make you happy?


Presumably the "bloody foreigners" who are keeping the NHS going don't count.

People have repeatedly explained WHY your argument is flawed but that doesn't fit into your narrow Tory mind.

Oh dear.

[bronnie98]

When I lived in Australia I was asked to bring my passport to appointments - if I couldn't show residency I was charged up front. It's not rocket science to chase up fees owed.

[bronnie98]

I think you're being unfair to the OP. I'm a Labour voter and the antithesis of UKIP et al - my partner is an "immigrant". He expects the same system here as I was faced with in Australia. It's not racism it's simple economics.

[merrymouse]

It's not rocket science to chase up fees owed.

No, but as with any organisation this would be the job of the finance department.

Equally, a GP can refuse to take on a new patient, but doctors do not write the legislation that governs which NHS treatments are provided free of charge to non-residents and which aren't - that would be the government.

[Collaborate]

Haven't read the whole thread, as there appears to be a great deal of emotions coming to the fore, which makes for a bun fight rather than reasoned debate.

As a solicitor I got used to, many years ago, acting as the government's gatekeeper when assessing eligibility for legal aid. No one complained then, even though rates of pay were plummeting and have continued in their downward spiral ever since. So in principle, I think it ought to be looked at.

Hospitals abroad seem to be able to manage it. We need to look at how they do it. I would expect this to encourage more people to take out travel insurance.

From past experience of how government works, they'd have to be bloody sure that it's going to raise revenue or be, at least, cost neutral.

[ottothedog]

Whats it got to do with the doctor? Clue = job title. Maybe if the admin team were unhappy with a salary paycut you might start to have the beginnings of a point. As it is you are sounding like a deluded fool.

(Someone asked about intensive care costs per day. Its between 1000 and 1700 apparently. As already stated, a c section birth is nowhere near 30 000 in the uk, more like 3000 or less - you would pay far more of course under an american style system 30 000 - 50 000 for birth, 10 000 per day for icu according to google)

[Scoobydoo8]

Presumably the "bloody foreigners" who are keeping the NHS going don't count

By why why - that's another beef of mine - errrrrr why can't the nurses that they train at the local hosp/uni near here staff the hosps. Are we training too few? Are they all moving to Australia etc? Are they overworked and won't do it? Why??? Surely someone somewhere can sit down with a bit of paper and say - well we need 10,000 new nurses, let's up the number being trained at x,y,z unis. Ditto medical staff. Ok, there is a time lag but why take others from hard pressed Asian and East European countries?

So many incoming nurses are required that they had to change the new legislation that restricted the numbers coming from overseas to work here? Why????????????

OH, of course, another ploy by HMG to destroy the NHS>

[Scoobydoo8]

I agree that the finance dept would chase up fees. But, especially in A/E, the doctors are the front line. Which is possibly why this was how it was phrased on the news today, as the drs doing it.

[Scoobydoo8]

Thinking about it it's probably cheaper to employ pretrained staff from overseas who don't complain about pay or hours. And doing agency work is more lucrative for locals.

[jacks11]

How and when would you suggest we do this? I have enough to do without adding on administration duties.

If I am going to be doing the duties of an administrator/debt collector, instead of my actual job Id be interested to know which aspects of my job would you be happy for me to cease doing?

There are ways for the money owed to be collected, but often it can cost more to chase them for the cash than what is owed. The only way to prevent it would be to demand payment before treatment- and with emergency care that is prohibited at present (which I think is correct as I could not, in all conscience, refuse to treat a patient in an emergency situation as they had not paid in advance).

[merrymouse]

But, especially in A/E, the doctors are the front line. Which is possibly why this was how it was phrased on the news today, as the drs doing it.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/418634/Implementing_overseas_charging_regulations_2015.pdf

They aren't supposed to charge people who turn up A&E.

[jacks11]

Scooby

The answer to your question is that we do not train enough nurses, doctors etc to fill the number of posts required. It's a long-standing "tradition" that the UK recruits ( or "poaches") healthcare workers from overseas. That way we avoid having to pay for the training of all the staff the NHS needs (if I am being cynical).

Added to that a small, but still significant proportion of UK trained professionals are leaving the UK at present for opportunities overseas.

[merrymouse]

And even in the U.S., public hospitals can't turn away emergency patients.

[bronnie98]

Not everyone who turns up to A&E is an emergency... Why don't we charge for emergency care out of interest?

[Siwi]

Thanks Otto

[jay55]

My aunt paid when she was a non resident, I mean it took a year for her insurance to settle everything but they paid out. She was charged a fraction what it would have cost at home due to nhs flat rates though.

[Scoobydoo8]

According to the doc above they intend to extend charging to a/e.
Will be considering introducing charges for A&E care,
outside EHIC collection (without compromising rapid
access to emergency care for those in immediate or
urgent need

There is no incentive to collect costs or care pgs 18/19
Commissioners and providers
have told us very clearly that the current money flows and distribution of financial risk
does not incentivise providers to recover costs and – in some cases – actively
discourages providers to undertake their statutory obligations

Maybe that explains the 100 non eu persons recorded for last year.

[evilcherub]

Why don't they just adopt the US system or make sure that non-EU Nationals enter the UK with valid medical insurance as part of any visa?