To have lost my shit with dd2?

[Littlefluffyclouds81]

Ok I think I probably was. But I'm exhausted.

Dd2 has zero contact with her father (through a court order). She is 5. I don't have much in the way of support from family or friends. I love the bones of her but find her completely fucking exhausting. Because I'm all she has our relationship is very intense and I find it hard to cope with sometimes.

She can't bear it if I talk to other people, for example if I'm sitting talking to a friend she will physically stand in between us and block the conversation, having to tell me something super urgent about shopkins or something, that apparently can't wait. She does this whenever I try to talk to anyone. Same goes for conversations on the phone, she'll go from not wanting to speak to me to all of a sudden having 1001 urgent things to tell me.

Tonight's particular episode - we have been out all day together doing stuff, she's had my full attention. I start talking about bedtime and she tells me she wants to sleep in my bed. I told her no (because she is a complete pain in the arse to sleep next to), I'm tired and just want a night in my own bed without being kicked etc every thirty seconds. So she goes nuclear at this, which started the next power struggle of trying to get her up the stairs. I went upstairs and asked her to come up, after various threats etc she made it, but after cleaning her teeth she claimed to be incapable of walking the last 2 metres to her room. She wanted me to carry her and I said no because I had a bad back. Cue 5 minutes of her screaming at me, so I told her if she wasn't in her room by the time I counted to 3 she wasn't getting a story. She gave me a defiant look, I counted to three, then put her in bed and turned the light off and left her screaming. She's asleep now but I feel like a shitbag.

It's like this a lot of the time. Endless power games and her trying to dictate what happens. Probably quite normal 5 year old stuff but what's hard is the endlessness of it. She goes to school and I miss her, then I pick her up and within half an hour she's driving me nuts. I am studying so even when she's at school I don't get time to myself. I can't think about having a relationship, partly because I'm depressed and not in the right place, and partly because I hardly ever get any time away from her so it's not logistically possible. I've accepted that's just how it is but bloody hell its hard work doing this 365 days a year.

[Littlefluffyclouds81]

Thanks FFS. I do try explaining these things to her but it's like talking to a brick wall, I'll keep at it though and maybe one day she'll listen. She gets between 11-12 hours sleep a night, luckily she is a good sleeper, otherwise I probably would have gone completely bonkers by now.

[tethersend]

Attachment difficulties can present as ASD and vice versa, so I'm not shocked to hear that the nursery suspected ASD and the EP subsequently ruled it out.

Whilst this information is aimed at children in or adopted from care, some of it may be helpful. Whatever happened to your DD was significant enough to cause entrenched fears and damage her resilience, so reasoning with her about needing space to yourself might not work, as she can't control or explain her need to be close to you.

[Littlefluffyclouds81]

Thanks for that link, it's certainly interesting. There were the 4 days she was with her father when he took her but prior to that I was too scared to bond with her because I believed she was going to be taken from me, so that could have caused attachment problems. And I have probably overcompensated since all that fear was removed from my life but in doing so, and because of dd2 being such a handful too, dd1 has been neglected emotionally so she has problems too.

We're all a bit fucked up and I've got to fix it somehow.

[tethersend]

Good luck with it all, Little

[ohtheholidays]

OP,even though she was quite young when it happened if you haven't already sought out help and support for yourself and your DD you really should and the sooner would be better for you both.

Because of your daughters age at the time she may not remember what happened but she could still be holding onto confused and scared feelings from then.Having those feelings of fear and not knowing why can actually be far worse than having an understanding of why you feel that way about certain things.

It can be very traumatic for an adult and as adults we have far more understanding of others and the world around us as a child were far more vunerable and I honestly think that could be what your daughter is exhibiting her fear and uncertainty.

There's every chance your poor little girl doesn't know why she feels the way she does she just knows it's the way she feels.

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

I think you handled the situation well under the circumstances. One possible approach would be to say "Your bedtime is 7.30 and I will be turning the light off then. If you want a story then it will have to happen before then, so the longer it takes you to get into bed the less time for a story." That gives a clear link between playing up and the lack of a story without blaming her behaviour.
Does DD1 go to bed later than DD2? Could you sit down with her for 10 mins each night when DD2 is in bed so she has you to herself. A few minutes undivided attention a day can make a surprising difference to your relationship.

[ohtheholidays]

Little please contact your family Dr as soon as possible and insist on help for your poor little girl,she's been through so much in such a short time.

Please don't think her behavior is power struggles it is not!Like another poster said your poor little girl is having to quash down fears that are becoming all consuming for her.

She needs help with all of this now as sadly if it's left it will get alot worse for her when she becomes a teenager.

I've witnessed what this kind of trauma can manefest into once a child hits puberty if they don't get the right kind of support and help they deserve when they're much younger.

It's awful to see.

[Italiangreyhound]

Littlefluffyclouds81 I have tried to read all your comments but not read all the comments others have written as I am just off to bed!.

I read this She was kidnapped by her father at 19 months and at the time that changed her behaviour massively - she went from being fairly independent as far as 19 month olds go to crying if I left the room, and crying when people she didn't know came round. But that was a long time ago and she's actually more than happy to go to school or activities without me, so I'm not sure it's that.

And I just felt this must be a really big part of her issues, even though she was so young, she would not have the language to process what happened. I wonder if you can get some professional help to work out if this has left her with some anxiety or attachment issues.

I also wonder if when you say I can't think about having a relationship, partly because I'm depressed and not in the right place, and partly because I hardly ever get any time away from her so it's not logistically possible. that she is feeding off some of your depression, or at least your sadness at parenting alone.

You said I've noticed there is a direct correlation between me feeling cheerful and energetic to how things go between me and dd2. Problem is I just feel knackered all the time at the moment. Not sure how much is depression and how much is the fact that I have a lot to do. I just feel like I'm not doing any of it very well at the moment.

I think you are doing well, that you are holding it together but you need help.

I really think you need to look after you, go to the GP, talk about the depression, get some Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and/or anti depressants if this would be best for you. Do you think you are still affected by the kidnapping?

Re ... but I wished at that moment dd2 had never happened because I know things would be so different with dd1 if she hadn't. Of course I love them both to pieces and I feel awful just writing that, but from the word go dd2 has been so full on, completely the opposite to dd2, and the combination of that and my own MH not being great over the last few years means dd1 has been sidelined, and that's why she has problems now. Do you think DD2 could be picking up on this feeling?

I am not clear from these posts how much help you are getting as a whole family, I really feel, from my brief reading of it, that all your mental health needs are tied up in each other and you need help as a family to relate to each other, be close, give each other space.

You don't mention your own parents, do you. Are they on the scene supportive?

Are you part of any group for single parents etc or any other group (church, school) that is supportive of you and brings you into contact with trusted adults who can offer help? Family Centres used to do something called Sure Start that was helpful to mums and families struggling a bit. I can’t say more as I don’t know but someone may know.

[Italiangreyhound]

Re To answer a couple of questions - no she has never had any therapy and I understand about attachment so agree that could have something to do with the way she is now. Not sure how I would go about accessing help for her though? Please speak to your GP first (I suggest) and also whoever is already providing any mental health help to you or your other daughter. Social services may be able to help.

I really agree with tethersend when they say...

Please don't mistake that worrying behaviour for power games- it must feel like power games, especially with the relentlessness of it all, but I think it would be a mistake to assume that that's what the behaviour is.

She may well have developed coping strategies in certain situations, and is able to sufficiently 'squash' the fear to be able to go to school, play with friends and stay with your mum. That doesn't mean that the fear isn't real or overwhelming when she's not squashing it down.

As I said, none of us can say what the issue is, only a professional can- but treating the behaviour as a power game may well exacerbate it if it stems from her traumatic experience.

Re we had involvement from SWs from CAFCASS during the court case but not apart from that. Her nursery suggested she may be autistic but this was quashed by the ed psych when she started school. She has coped with being at school marvellously, and they get none of the behaviour I get, so they don't see a problem.

I find the fact she behaves different at school and home very normal, my dd is quite a handful at home but very compliant at school. I am surprised the Ed Psych was so dismissed, did she actually do any assessments on your dd?

Again I find myself agreeing with tethersend when they say Attachment difficulties can present as ASD and vice versa, so I'm not shocked to hear that the nursery suspected ASD and the EP subsequently ruled it out.

My dd is not on ASD but she does have tendencies for this in terms of friendships, and the dyslexia affects her. She is growing out of some of the behaviour and coping better but she has a real temper and can be difficult.

For you, I think any help (schools link worker, CAMHS, GP etc) is always welcome because the more we get the more chance of getting things right. So I would say if your concerns over autistic spectrum persist ask again. I know children who cope very well at school but still have Aspergers (or sometimes called high functioning autism), coping with school is different to home. Different challenges. Basically I think whatever helps you find ways to do stuff better, and to understand your kids better, all well and good. Ask for and push for all the help you can get. Check if here are grants or benefits attached to anything, because these can be used to help your dd.

[PiperChapstick]

Op I don't have a 5yo so no advice but i just wanted you to have these you sound very strong and a fab mum X

[Italiangreyhound]

My dd is dyslexic and her problems started at about age 6 when she was in Year 1 at school. She became very difficult and demanding at home. I am not one for self help books all the time but this one the parenting puzzle as part of the Family Links Nurturing Programme helped me a lot. It kind of signalled a change in things at home, as I felt more in control. And after this my husband and I went on to adopt a little boy.

You may not have time for a course but if you ever do have time,then investigate it if you feel it will help (you can often get onto these free in your local area via the children's centre, they are usually about 8 mornings over a 10 week period or something and are a lot of fun).

Re We're all a bit fucked up and I've got to fix it somehow. Well my dear Littlefluffyclouds81 that is true of all of us, I think, but you have certainly been through the mill much more than most.

Please see it as a joint effort that professionals will help you, it is not your job to fix your kids alone, you need help and it sounds like you have not always had the best help from professionals! Maybe it is time to start asking and insisting on help for your dd, who was the victim of this crime, and that emotional repercussions are a factor from what has happened that have affected you all. So you really do deserve all the help you can get. Please get a nice professional, GP, Cafcass or whatever person on your side. You really need the support I feel.

(PS Just to say I am mum to two, a birth dd aged 10 and an adopted son aged 5, I know a bit about social services, a bit about attachment, a bit about ASD and a bit about having kids who are bloody hard work! But I don't know a lot about anything so find yourself some real life support who know a lot about your needs and just be as pleasantly demanding as you can bear to be!

The squeaky wheel gets oiled so be a squeaky wheel for both your dds and for yourself. Bless you.

[Littlefluffyclouds81]

The ed psych did observe dd2 but at her school entry review she and the teachers agreed there was nothing at all to be concerned about re dd2's behaviour. But dd1 is undergoing assessment for asd at the moment, and I have some asd traits myself. However I know that asd/attachment difficulties often present similarly so who knows, as I think they probably both have attachment difficulties to some extent.

Re my own parents, I wasn't close to either of them whilst growing up, but I am quite close to my mum now (they got divorced 11 years ago). Closer, I guess, but there's still lots I don't tell her.

I feel overwhelmed by it all. Dd1 has just started secondary and needs lots of support. Dd2 is as much of a handful as ever (though she can be so adorable when she chooses to be), all I want to do at the moment is sleep and shut everything out and I feel like I'm falling behind on my degree because I'm just not awake enough to study by the time the evening comes round. I am trying to get my house looking nice for us all but it's an uphill struggle. I run a business which I haven't dedicated enough time to lately. I have a couple of close friends to talk to but they both have quite a lot going on themselves at the moment. I've become completely reliant on my dog for comfort, I know it sounds stupid but the only time I am truly relaxed and happy is when I'm having a good cuddle with him. Problem with that is he's nearly 12 and I know he won't live forever, which is something I've started obsessing about recently, I really don't know how I'd cope with losing him.

The kidnapping was the grand finale of years of abuse from a psychopath, yes it's affected me but I've come a long way from where I was 3 years ago and the nightmares have mostly stopped.

I don't feel like I've got any direction and I'm floundering. I think I need a great big kick up the bum. Family therapy was suggested to me by a lecturer at uni and she gave me a number for someone she knows, but I haven't been able to get hold of her. I will try again tomorrow. I was just contacting her with concerns about my relationship with dd1 but it does seem like dd2 needs to be in the equation too.

Ive had an evening of soul searching and putting pieces together in my mind, didn't really expect this thread to go this way but I'm glad it has.

[Italiangreyhound]

I am so pleased the thread has been helpful. Please, please see this as positive. The only way is up!

Please get some rest. I am off to bed too now!

Keep us updated, if it helps.

[Atenco]

Going back to your original point, your dd sounds a lot like my dd at that age. Without being a psychologist, I think clear boundaries give children security.

But what you really need to attend to is your energy levels. Vitamin B complex is good.

[Senpai]

Doesn't sound like you lost your shit at all, sounds like you handled a tantrum really well.

This.

Think of it like making a child take their medicine. They hate it, but it's good for them. It's good for her to learn boundaries. Small children are comfortable with firm boundaries because it gives them safe parameters to explore with.

I sit DD in the naughty corner when she doesn't listen. You'd think I was murdering her. But she learns not to do certain things and she is none the worse for it.

I also do about an hour of separate quiet time a day with each other. She gets all her favorite toys in her crib, I get a shower and time to relax. I come back to her recharged, and she is just happy to have unstructured play without me following her telling her "no" when she explores.

[Youarentkiddingme]

I agree with tethers demand aviidant behaviour is often routed from anxiety. When she feels out of control she tries to gain it back through her behaviour.

What I found interesting is how to said she loves your DD1 going off with her dad and she gets you all to herself. It may not be that she loves it but more she has her only constant to herself iyswim? Is there any chance she is worried about you becoming 'ill' and not being able to see her anymore? That will make separation hard even if she's fine once separated.

[Axekick]

Hi OP. I think you handled the situation really well.

I don't have much advice, just wanted to sympathise really. My ds (second child) is very similar. To the point that we wanted him assessed. But like your dd, at school he is doing really well academically and socially.

But when he comes home it's constant power games. I do feel dd (oldest) is side lines a lot too. Very thing has to have a strict routine, if we miss a bath for any reason, there is screaming and he throws himself around.

It's different for me as I have dh, so I get time with dd at least once a week and if her school has an inset day and ds doesn't, I take her out.

As I said I don't have any advice, just wanted to say I kind of understand the bewilderment you feel, but have no advice. Just wanted to give you some support. It's sounds like you are doing your best. I think a chat with your GP, is a good idea and just go from there

[minimalist000001]

Firstly you have to find a way for you to feel less depressed. CBT or Meds from GP or amazons 5-HTP and really looking after yourself. When you feel better, your relationship will be smoother and happier.

Secondly can you 'love bomb' her before chatting to others/phone calls.

Reward verbally her when she's patient.

[minimalist000001]

Time out worked with three of mine but not the middle fourth child. Time out led DS to feel emotionally out of control and his anxiety went through the roof.

What did work? Reading the highly sensitive child book by Arron. Total life saver. Helped build our relationship.

[TheGruffaloFish]

We have had a bit the same issues with our two (5&3). What has made a huge improvement is, instead of ending up punishing them with no story, telling them their story is dependent on doing what they are asked. So they have to come to the bathroom when asked, be compliant when brushing teeth, go to bedroom and get pjs on. If they do, then they get a story, if they don't, they don't get one but it's not us taking it away every night. Might that help?

[minimalist000001]

I agree with phrasing things so they sound positive rather then punishing

[mummytime]

I would say the steps are:
Get help for yourself, it is very very very hard to aren't when you are unwell/struggling.
See if Sure start or someone will provide some support (get your GP or old HV to refer you), with your depression, DD1's possible ASD, and DD2's attachment issues I would expect you to be a high priority.
Do try to get a parenting course - highest value for you would be to realise how well you are doing
Stop thinking DD2 is doing this deliberately and can control it. It's still annoying behaviour but not quite as bad if you don't think there is something you can do to stop it
She may have ASD, or attachment issues or both. The Ed Psych didn't see her enough to really judge, and presentation in girls is "trickier", and often diagnosed much later. Anyway trying ASD or attachment issues techniques will not do a "normal" child any harm.
If CAHMS are useless in your area a referral to a developmental paediatrician might help.
Counselling would also be positive.

Have you ever explained explicitly that you find her interrupting of adult conversations irritating and she shouldn't do it? Maybe try and play a game where she chats to her teddy and you interrupt. If she has ASD she will not necessarily pick up on the social cues most children do.

With my DC they were allowed in my bed but after too much wriggling they had to go to their own. This meant my youngest would come in for brief cuddles and then go to her own bed, her big sister was very good at sneaking in and not being discovered until morning.

[CrazyCatLady13]

Relate offer counselling for children who have gone through parental separation / who aren't in contact with their dads / have been abused etc. I can highly recommend it, the results can be staggering. I've seen a little 6 year old who wouldn't make eye contact with anyone (saw mum being thrown down the stairs by dad) start coming in, chatting, showing off her school work after a few weeks. They're specialists in this area, and can sometimes offer the service for free (depends on funding) and if not free the charges are reasonable. Disclaimer - I worked in an office where we had Relate counsellors using the office upstairs, and worked on Reception booking the children in.