To wonder why so many teachers want to quit

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

Inspired by other threads but I didn't want to derail.

What is going on in education that is making teaching so stressful?

I work in the City and you don't see too many people quitting with stress even though the work can be stressful. Certainly, not the numbers you see in teaching.

I'm with Iguana. There has always been management. Ofsted, the threat of OFSTED and in particular the damage done by league tables is the biggest factor IMO.

That huge and poisonous shift was created by the emergence of league tables and ofsted.

I have acknowledged the toxic effect of league tables.

I think if you are giving a teacher-bashing speech about how SPAG standards have fallen, it makes sense to proof read that speech properly before uploading it to your website. Call me old-fashioned.

I notice they have taken a lot of those speeches down now ...

There has always been management

There have not always been large, highly-paid, self-serving Senior Management Teams separate and superior to the classroom teachers. This is the point I've been trying to make over a number of posts. Obviously badly.

Iguana Many of your perceived SLT 'responsibilities' listed in your post of 22.11 actually support the perception catfordbetty and I have of wasted time and resources due to the ineffective efforts of those promoted way above their ability proceeding to create their own roles eg 'Difficult parents' 'difficult staff situations', regardless of whether these activities contribute to student and staff well-being and results/ outcomes in all their forms.

The vast majority of parental concerns and problems with staff are created due to blatant inequality of contact-time/work loading and failure of the current leadership structure (in the state secondary sector in my 27 years' experience, admittedly only in three schools), to effect healthy working environments.

Your post makes no sense at all Amanda. The vast majority of parental concerns are no different now than they were 10, 20, 30 years ago. Parents are concerned if their child isn't working well or isn't happy. Same as always. They are concerned if they feel there has been an injustice or their child has been the victim of some nastiness. Same as always. They are concerned if their child is getting into trouble. Same as always. You could have every teacher on a 10% timetable and the same concerns would come in, because that's what happens when you have a thousand people in an institution. Issues, grievances, problems.

You haven't answered my question regarding who you deal with staffing and student discipline issues and all the other myriad of things that senior leaders have to deal with. You can't outsource them to a call centre in Birmingham, and it's not fair for teachers on a full timetable to take this on as well. Creating a timetable and staffing and managing a school is not a "perceived" responsibility, it is a real and actual responsibility. How should this all be distributed in your ideal flat structure, where nobody has presumably any responsibility apart from teaching the students in their class?

There have not always been large, highly-paid, self-serving Senior Management Teams separate and superior to the classroom teachers This is not my experience at all. I have never worked in a school where SLT/SMT are "separate and superior" in the way you suggest.

The Concierge of a French school walks the job, Iguana, checking attendance, punctuality, discipline, Carnet de Liaison etc. Issues are not dramas, if a student needs to be isolated for discipline / support, he's responsible for this. He probably draws €1200 pcm. Simplistic ? Yes. Effective ? Very.

Parents' perceptions of unfairness ? Given the current system in England, I don't blame most of them for being concerned about their child's safety and achievement. A spokesperson to 'address their concerns' is akin to applying a plaster to a gunshot wound, unless s/he is genuinely enabled to address the fact that Matilda's third Maths teacher this year has, indeed failed to DIRT mark her book this week due to struggling with 34 students in Set 2 along with the rest of his punishing timetable, observations, PM targets and a relationship breakdown while taking his anti-depressants. Count yourself lucky, parent, she was moved away from Josh whose SEN meant that he spent the lessons sobbing & Matilda was distracted by trying to help him, while the TA was breaking up a fight between Wayne & Chelsea.

Timetabling ? Bespoke software is infinitely more efficient than an evolved PE teacher scheduling his mates next September to doss with AS Sociology while the latest core NQTs face sets of 30 + . That one was busted several years ago ... By some ex-teachers. They are making a fortune. Academies prioritise timetabling because the ability to maximise the use of UQT is key to their business model. A very good job many of them make if it too. Hadn't you noticed that ? Perhaps you need to get out more ?

I don't see why non-teaching tasks should not be delegated to non-teachers. Stuff like organising a school photo photos/school trips do not require postgraduate education, would be far better and more cheaply dealt with by an efficient admin, secretary type person. Same with data analysis. There seems to be a reluctance to admit that you do not have to have classroom experience to be able to do many of the school tasks.
Dealing with parents, again appoint a diplomatic person to deal with al but the most serious cases - could even be a retired teacher or someone who has taught and no longer wants to.
Real waste of teaching skills, by definition presumable those form the most experienced teachers, to take them out of the classroom.

evolved PE teacher
I am not a PE teacher, but I do find this offensive.

"Bespoke software is infinitely more efficient..."

I wonder if that would be the same software that timetabled dh to be teaching Yr3 B.Ed students on Easter Sunday last year?

We've had a non-teacher in charge of timetabling the last couple of years and it has led to some stupid timetabling decisions, that a teacher would have not made, and decisions being made about teaching because 'it could be timetabled more easily' instead of what's best for teaching leading the timetabling.

Then just give them better training and advice.

The school admin office of DDs school is staffed by teachers as they are the supply teachers if one of the teachers assigned to a class is sick. They then share a pool of admin people between the school district.

I think it's far more beneficial to staff the office this way then have to find random substitute teachers who don't know the children. This system runs K-8 and the high school is timetabled so specialist subjects don't overlap. If one teacher is out a substitute is ready to go.

I think the issues faced by the teaching profession are very simple. The unions have done a terrible job of supporting their members. Quite frankly to an outsider such as myself they are far too political and not talking facts in a professional manner. Teachers today have an awful time and are in a no win position.

Speaking of which, it's Halloween celebrations at DDs school today. DDs teacher has 3 kids and when making party bags I made an extra 3 so she has a nice surprise for them. She has organized a fabulous day for the kids.

So who gives the training and advice? Teachers! Why not just give a teacher the training and time to do the timetable?

We also have had a non teacher doing the timetable and it was not done well. It all fit into the boxes but didn't take any staffing into account properly. Josh Matilda Wayne and Chelseas will always be in the room to deal with. That's part of how our education system works. The only difference is that there are indeed targets and performance management which were not around previously in that form, and I totally agree that that has tipped the balance. But those things being there are not down to SLT they are imposed on all schools.

We have had non teachers do the head of year role. One was great, the others appalling. We have now reverted to teachers with responsibility points and (shock) some time to do the role.

The entire set up of French schools is different and that system would not work here. The French (largely) have a lot more trust in and respect for teachers. That's why it's an incredibly sought after job there. Teachers in France have effectively no pastoral intervention whatsoever. That is not our culture here. We have had teachers in the UK involved as form tutors for decades and decades. In France they have nothing like the inspection / name and shame / league tables shit we have here. In France they have unions which fight for teachers' rights. In France they have long lunch times and no duties or cover. But in France they also have a very embryonic approach to SEN. You can't transpose their system onto us. We can certainly learn from them. And most schools have non teachers doing attendance and signing students in late etc.

The issues you raise (a book not marked) is a department leader job to look into. They would be very unlikely to ring up after one week. There have always been complaints about books not being marked but the difference now is that with all the other stuff going on it's harder. But there is not an iniquity.

This annoys me too. One of our office staff decided recently that replacing my whiteboard projector bulb wasn't a priority. Couldn't teach properly for 10 days.
Same person who designed the re-modelling of the classrooms when the builders were in. No one thought to ask us, you know, the teachers who'd be using the space, what we thought. Quelle surprise, the whole thing is a shambles and doesn't work well. And guess who had to spend the September Inset day cleaning up builder's dust, as the cleaners had been told they didn't need to come in until after the children's first day back.

Software may be fallible, but its failings rarely include favouritism, and a love of having its arse licked. It's good at highlighting inequality too.

Teachers use software and it does a good job. I had a timetable a few years back, created by a non-teacher. It was appalling. It was a 2 week timetable and lessons were 1.5 hours long. I taught French and had a particular y9 class who had a lesson on a Wednesday and Thursday of week A and that was it. So by the time 13 days had passed about 90% of the previous lesson had been forgotten. But it fitted the box so no problem.

That is not our culture here

That's OK then, we'll carry on as we are.

I hope the broken teacher turns the lights off on his way out, it wouldn't do to waste resources, would it ?

Timetabling is done by a non-teacher in my school, but SLT still teach very little because the teaching allocation is not decided by the person who runs the software.

Amanda, you seem to be a neurotic in your opinions. On the one hand you back teachers, on the other you think that all SLT do things for a cushy life and exploit those lower down the scale.

Now that might be your experience, and if it is I really feel for you, but most SLT members work hard and I don't know any teacher of any level whose efforts are not placed in the best interests of the students. I've been in this game a long time, and I've been at almost all levels of seniority. I can count on one hand the amount of people I've worked with who've been self serving and short termist, most of the rest have been hard working.

Are you sure you're not a DfE spad? Cause what you actually seem to be proposing is that the activities of SLT could actually be passed down and shared out amongst teachers at lower expense, or hire outside professionals to concentrate on them alone. All of which sound like what someone who was backing academy chains would say.

Busted. Almost.

DH is a legal policy advisor to academy chains, among other publicly-funded organisations.

The combination of my experience and his professional perspective means that were are just a tad cynical .

Lurker, her posts read like Dominic Cummins, frankly. All bile and no evidence.

Sooooo, Amanda, both of you happy to lob grenades from afar but God forbid either of you should actually try to do one of these jobs yourselves and improve the situation? Or go for a headship and run a tight ship somewhere? Presumably you are too different and special and your experience tells you all you need to know, the plural of anecdote being data, natch. And there are easier ways of your family bringing home the bacon than actually doing one of these jobs?