Australians should stop milking spiders

[Marue]

Heard that they were urging people to catch more spiders to milk for anti venom, the average spider gets milked 100 times before being killed!

It just seems very inhumane to do that these days, surely with modern technology they should synthesise this?

Bet OP hasn't had redbacks in the bathroom or a brown snake nest under the shed...

Or needed to check her shoes REALLY carefully before putting them on.

Sorry if someone else has said this but since the production of antevenom nobody has died of a Funnel Web bite in Australia. Before that around half of deaths were children. I have no problem milking spiders if it would prevent my ds's death. Also, I am one of those who prefers to remove spiders from the house, humanely, but in England we live in probably the safest country in the world. If I lived in Australia I'm fairly sure I'd stomp on them immediately.

On a point of fact though, funnel webs are not actually aggressive unless they're frightened. In which case they sink their fangs in repeatedly [shudders]

Ants do milk aphids.
Vertebrates and invertebrates are treated differently, ethically, because the lack of a backbone also means no spinal column and a much more limited intelligence and capacity to suffer.

Hmm lets not start discussing the pain involved when being bitten by a red ant. Now those things are nasty!

I'm all for consideration of any creature's feelings and wouldn't mush a spider that was no threat to me no mercy on mozzies though. If animals are kept in captivity they should be kept as comfortably and handled as humanely as possible IMO. There has been some ludicrous anthropomorphism on this thread though. What kind of lifestyle does your average venomous spider enjoy in the wild, you have to ask yourself? Would herds of migrating funnel-webs sweep majestically across the plains, enjoying the sun on their backs and the easy-going social interaction with others of their species, if they were not confined to small tanks in a lab? Would they heck. Happiness for a funnel-web is a cosy dark hole and a regular supply of suitable food. Would you enjoy living like that? Probably not, but then you're not a spider. Or a gnu. (Give me the comfy tunnel and regular meals over majestic sweeping and being eaten by crocodiles any day.)

Reminds me of ex-SIL, who went to stay with her bro when his DC had a pet tarantula. She was sure the poor thing felt claustrophobic in its tank so she opened the lid just a little bit overnight to give the poor thing some fresh air. Spider flattened itself, as they do, squeezed out of the tank, and BIL accidentally stepped on it in the morning. Ah well, it's probably happier in spider heaven, eh? (This is the same SIL who had a major go at the staff in a bird of prey sanctuary for hooding and tethering the hawks. Couldn't they take the hoods off and perhaps have a television in there or something?)

Vertebrates and invertebrates are treated differently, ethically, because the lack of a backbone also means no spinal column and a much more limited intelligence and capacity to suffer.

This is an interesting point. As LEM said upthread, she deals with invertebrates but they still endeavour to maximise their welfare standards regardless of their reduced capacity for experiencing pain. I think it's part of what makes us human - we have pretty much absolute power over many many species, but we (mostly) can make an active choice not to go mad with that power because it would lessen us as people. The impact of violence from us might not be relatively that significant for the spiders, due to the degree of their intellect/ability to feel pain, but I do think I'd be less trusting of a person who randomly pulled spiders to bits for fun compared with a person who chose not to. There's a reason most of us tell our toddlers off if they start pulling harmless insects apart (and not just because we're scared that they'll get bitten/eat the bits).

If we choose to arbitrarily hurt other creatures (i.e. not for any good reason, just because we can) then maybe it doesn't mean that much in the grand scheme of things for that creature. However I do believe it has a negative impact on the human responsible, in terms of their respect for life and other living creatures.

That's my lecture for the day over

Oh and congratulations on your newborn Jassy!!

I'm Australian. I've never seen a funnel web in the 30 odd years I've lived here, but we did have redbacks in our garden. You don't have a policy of live and let live with those spiders, particularly not when you have a toddler running around. I'd rather kill them, or have them milked in a laboratory, than lose my daughter.

Ooh and on the vertebrates/invertebrates point again: it doesn't always work out so well for the vertebrates. I had a friend doing her PhD in Biological Sciences and in her lab they worked with zebrafish embryos. Since the zebrafish embryos were vertebrates (albeit v.tiny, not-fully-formed ones), they weren't allowed to kill them once the experiments were over - they had to cover the dish and push it to the back of the bench to let the embryos die in their own time. One particularly devil-may-care student took some home and kept them in his fridge to see how long they lasted.

That seemed a bit..... messed up.

I have arachnophobia. I cannot, in all honesty, feel much sympathy for them. Plus, this is all for a good cause.

Thanks for the link on plant intelligence/sentience echt - that is very interesting, I might buy the book.

In the meantime though, I've got to eat something

To all the posters here who live in Australia....I am bowing down to you guys I don't know how you do it...I would have a nervous breakdown....if I lasted that long without sleeping for fear of something crawling into bed. I get you all are probably so used to it, but I know so many Brits who are moving over or want to...no I wouldn't last. Spiders here aren't nice but at least the worst thing for us, is walking into a web across an arch and getting it all over your face. I have an arch in my garden...it happens everytime I go down...I always forget to check. As far as spiders go I don't feel the need to protest on their behalf but if I see one I catch it and throw it outside...I cannot stand flies!

MrsB - the rule of thumb here is that if it makes a "proper" web, it's far less dangerous.

Huntsman and white tail spiders don't make webs, they're active hunters, which is why they run so fast.
Redbacks make a messy sort of web in cracks and crevices - seeing a mess of leaf bits and stuff in outdoor toys etc. is usually a dead giveaway that a redback is lurking behind it.
Funnelwebs - well they make the traditional funnel shaped web but I still haven't seen one of those around our place, although we've seen a couple of the spiders themselves, one in DH's bath towel - only a small one and it ran away under the washing machine.

Stolemy - that's really interesting that your DS got the necrosis, because there is still a lot of resistance to the idea that white tail bites cause necrosis, despite anecdotal evidence. If you read up about it on the net (never a good idea!) the "authorities" claim that there is no real evidence that white tail bites cause necrosis, but you are not the first person I have heard from who has experienced it first hand, so I don't know where the difference of "opinion" comes from! Still best to avoid them, IMO!

I don't kill Huntsmen, I leave them to themselves, but chuck them out if they come below the picture rail (and I can catch them).
Redbacks get stamped on, hosed and stamped on, hit with shoes or whatever on sight.
White tails - I've only caught one and I ended up leaving it under a glass for a day while I decided whether to let it go or kill it - ended up killing it with a sand bag.
Funnel web - only seen the one, as I said, couldn't do anything once it went under the washing machine.

DH (the Aussie!) got a bit confused about the black house spider webs that were in the house after it had been empty for a year before we moved in - thought they were funnel webs (they do look a bit similar) and killed all the black house spiders with spray. That was a bit upsetting. I still won't kill a spider that is no threat to me.

Spiders = fire and hammers.

Fuck 'em, I say.

Murphys taking me back to that beautiful red continent on this grey rainy day!!

Annie

Totally agree... There has been some ridiculous comments on here equating spider wellbeing with human wellbeing.... So ridiculous in fact that I think the OP may well be winding us up, and having a giggle that we've fallen for it.

A bit if an aside I admit, but the zebra fish embryo comment has got me thinking how those so concerned for spider welfare feel about abortion?

I really cannot equate spider welfare with abortion

I am a bit dubious about the zebrafish comment because i always thought (i don;'t know for sure as ive never done vertebrate research) any animal used in an experiment had to be humanely killed after the procedure. Leaving on the side to die doesn't count as humane and putting them in the fridge to see how long they took to die would be a garunteed way to get a student kicked off any course i was running.

Abortion from right to bodily autonomy PoV or forced birth/anti abortion?

LMAO at the herds of funnel webs sweeping majestically across the plains NOW that would have me grabbing my flame thrower!!

But you are exactly right - people do animals a massive disservice by attributing them human characteristics and needs. Not just spiders.

As i said earlier, its relatively easy to give a spider what it needs, the correct temperature, humidity, somewhere to hide, food and water (if it needs it) is pretty much all a tarantula or tube web dwelling spider would need. An orb web or arboreal spider/tarantula will need more space of course.

I have three tube web spiders (tube webs are NOT funnel webs - those wojldnt get free lodging in my house) in my kitchen, they have been there for years and i am really quite fond of them. They really don't stray much further than just outside their webs, they don't need to. So kept in captivity they would actually require very little space and they would be happy little tube webs.

Its the same for dogs, they are dogs, they are not people their needs are different from ours. A different issue but there are more problems with pet welfare imo than there is with invertebrate welfare in highly regulated laboratory environments.

The zebrafish story came from a pretty reliable and level-headed friend LEM - she swears it's true. It would have been in 1999-2002 or so, so perhaps things have tightened up since then. I hope so anyway.

I'm pro-choice by the way.

LEM - are they the ones with the big greeny-black shiny teeth? They're AMAZING.

Yep i luffs them :)

Human needs and emotions? I don't care if they write poetry. Kill the fuckers.

There are spiders with big teeth?

I'm considering changing my stance on this.

yes, here they are Contessa