Language, Timothy!

[Fatmomma99]

There seems to be a plethora of threads atm about teachers (particularly ones of English/media, etc) who can't spell or use the correct grammar rules and/or pronunciation.
Have others noted this?

FYI, I'm not a teacher, but work with lots of them. Not meaning to vent, but my DH studied philosophy at university. I don't think I'm dumb, but I understand not one word of what he studied. He was into Wittgenstien (which I can't even spell!) (and I TOTALLY don't understand him or what he stood for) but one of his "things" (which DH [and bloody DD] quote at me all the time is "meaning is use".

And my DH has this big "thing" which is all his philosophy bollocks about how language changes and evolves and that is just how it IS.

Deep in my heart, I'm a bit of a grammar Nazi, although I make mistakes all the time, and probably have in this post. But I do GET what he means, particularly now I'm on MN and so many people post threads through devices which auto-correct for them. There are SO many threads where people come back and post "oops! Meant to say ...."

So my AIBU is:(and sorry for the 3 paragraphs of waffle) Do we - shouldn't we - just let spelling and grammar "go". Because what is important about communication is that (a) we send out our "messages" in whatever form and (b) that those messages are "heard" and "understood " and (c) (if we are lucky) we get a message back.

So all those threads which are hijacked by some random outraged person saying (well, not actually saying, but actually saying!) "I'm going to ignore this thread about your dying mother [or whatever], because your device auto corrected a word and you used an apostrophe in the possessive when it should have been in the plural, so you are flamed and have a "
are just fucking crap, and we should stop them immediately!

OOO. Just noticed this thread is WAY longer than it was in my head. Sorry!

Several examples upthread, not hard to imagine others

An ability to use the language in standard forms is a requirement in some jobs (including when teaching others to use it). When there is poor grammar or spelling in those circumstances of course it's noticeable at it matters.

And formal communications need to be accurate too.

Even informal ones go better when accurate (for not everyone is a native speaker who can 'see' past errors, and it's a nightmare if you have to use tech which turns text to audio).

This is nothing whatsoever to do with any of the myriad ways some people choose to insult others online.

It depends on the context. I am a copywriter and therefore everything I write has to be grammatically correct, spelled correctly and have the correct punctuation.

Because of this I do find badly written pieces of text irritating to read, and I loathe text speak. Used anywhere other than on a mobile it is just lazy.

That said, I tend to just go with the flow, but I tend to ignore any posts on forums that are so badly written, with no punctuation and paragraphs because they are so difficult to read.

I Haven't noticed corrections when the OP is heartfelt or distressed, only when there's an irony eg: grammar school misspelled or rant about teachers' spelling.

There's been a much bigger emphasis on punctuation and grammar in English primary schools in the last few years. This culminates in the SPaG SAT in Y6. Hopefully this generation of people will know more.

Seriouslyffs- there are fewer of those now, admittedly, but mainly because people are hopefully waking up to how smug, twattish, and cruel it makes them look.
There was a time though, when certain posters delighted in starting threads about other people's errors and then flouncing when their utter fuckwittage was pointed out to them.
Derxa is right, back in the days when dinosaurs walked the earth, at my school we were timetabled to have 6 weeks of English, then 6 weeks of woodwork! I wouldn't have known a grammar point if it had smacked me round the chops with an Oxford comma.
Far more written errors remain due to punctuation (the Cinderella of SPaG) than to grammar though. As almost, if not all, of the examples given demonstrate.
I'm also wary of the autocorrect. It wanted me to call Derxa Herpes, go figure.

Almost all, if not all....

I don't understand why people don't switch auto correct off. I tend to MN using my laptop as I CBA to type lengthy texts on my phone. I use Firefox and it underlines any word it deems to be misspelled.

I appreciate good grammar, and it does make me wince when people write 'could of' 'your/you're' 'there/their/they're' incorrectly, but I wouldn't correct anybody.

Makes one look a twat, I find.

your, you're, UR

All used interchangeably nowadays - the last one would probably kill a Grammar Nazi, but it's in common use with the current crop of young adults and isn't going to go away!!

I quite like it because it can only be spelt one way, thus giving pedants nothing to pick up on apart from the fact they don't like it...

What's in common use, your for you're? Fricking diabolical, can NOT be used interchangeably, they're two different meanings!

Linguist here (linguisticist if we're going to be picky).

I can't construct a sentence where using the wrong your/you're or its/it's or there/they're/their changes the meaning. We only distinguish between them in writing for etymological reasons.

There are other homophone pairs which have the potential to cause confusion (His department effected/affected the improvements to the site, The committee voted in favour of accepting/excepting the applicant) but they are very few and generally quickly cleared up by context. This really shouldn't surprise us, given that when we speak and listen we aren't constantly wondering whether Jeff meant bow or bough.

Online conventions are different from formal conventions. I work in a niche and jargon-rich legal field in which the conventions are different again. Online it's important to use plenty of white space: a perfectly spelt and punctuated text with long sentences and no paragraph breaks would be fine on paper but is illegible on a screen (which incidentally is why "paperless" law firms like mine are anything but) whereas a short text littered with typos is more easily processed.

So far, so tolerant. However, there are accessibility issues with poor SPaG: if you read more visually then homophone errors slow you down; if you use a translator or screen reader then abbreviations and spelling mistakes come out as gobbledegook.

Using correct SPaG is like using good manners: the world still turns without, but life is easier with.

No, they don't count, because you haven't provided a sentence in which they'd be mistaken.

Stop leaving you're shit all over my car.
Your really shit at tennis.

Good luck, I've been trying for months!

Doesn't stop the error being fucking irritating, obviously, but objectively it doesn't affect the sense.

can NOT be used interchangeably, they're two different meanings!

Indeed, but that doesn't stop thousands of people doing it - and it doesn't actually make any difference because the meaning is clear from the context their used in (see what I did there).

And as the pronunciation is the same it makes a fantastic argument for using UR - nothing to go wrong there!! Its GR8

One of DH's favourite bits of trivia: studies of the Queen's accent have shown that it has become steadily more estuarine over the course of her reign. If the Queen's allowed to evolve then so are we!

I do sometimes use poor grammar in spoken language because it fits the delivery of a particular line (i.e. less funny if stated 'correctly') but I will rarely do the same in written communication because it hurts my soul.

I will now re-read this post 65 times in a desperate attempt to discover the grammatical errors before pressing 'Post message'.....

I will now re-read this post 65 times in a desperate attempt to discover the grammatical errors before pressing 'Post message'.....

Glad I'm not the only one then!!

you have to listen to all of this a sketch from john finnemor'se souvenier program (great twist):

No, they don't count, because you haven't provided a sentence in which they'd be mistaken.

But it's not just a question of getting the wrong meaning, it's also a question of how fluently we can read what the other person has written.

If I lv mst f th vwls out frm wht I tp, yu cn stll wrk out wht I'm syng, but it's much harder work. If I momentarily stumble as I read because of poor punctuation, or an unexpected spelling, or just a departure from standard written English, then it can put me off. But I think it's rude / childish to correct the odd error when someone is trying to express something personal or serious wanting genuine advice.

Finally: quick plug for MN's own Pedants' Corner, the lightening rod for rage about grammar etc. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/pedants_corner

LaContessa- yes it has. One of the linguistics journals did a study on it about 10 yrs ago. There were some audio scripts showing how much her voice has changed over the years.
I'd argue that that happenshappens to us all to a greater or lesser degree depending on the people around us. I imagine in the 1950s the Queen's staff were all minor aristocracy themselves.

There's an aspect of the OP that is being ignored: the unremittingly negative public discourse about schools and teachers. Pedantry about spelling, punctuation and grammar on Mumsnet is often in this context.