To think poor students will still be able to go to uni and now it will be fairer on ALL students !

[bereal7]

I've read a few ridiculous comments from posters complaining that their children won't be able to afford university. This is bullocks ; the loans will still be there and even higher now. On top of this, they don't have to be repaid until you are earning more than £21k. Therefore, there is no reason why poorer students can't afford university.

If anything, this is now a fair system. It was not right that some students could get such high grants and loans that they don't have to work whilst other only got the bare minimum and have to work - sacrificing their studies - just because their parents earnt more. Those who didn't have to work would be more likely to pass and have higher paying jobs but not have to pay back as much. It was a ridiculous and unfair system which penalised people whose parents were earning more on paper and I welcome this change. Everyone who wants to , and gets the grades, can go to uni but will have to pay back the loans the same as everyone else once they graduate. Aibu to think poorer students will still be able to go university?

So annoyed by the comments and hysteria so I'm sure there's a few typos in there - apologies

[Arrowminta]

From what I understand it's only the maintenance grants that are being converted into loans so there won't be any more money available for everyone.

That taxi driver would have been getting tax credits throughout their children's lives when they might not have been entitled had they declared all their income, it's a whole different subject.

[WhatICallAUsername]

I could say a lot about this subject (as a student currently receiving a full grant, bursary from my University and a partial Fee Waiver) however I don't particularly want to get drawn into a bun fight. I will say though to Viviennemary how can you say that it's unfair that only one parent's income is taken into account??
At 18 I lived with one parent for the majority of the time. This parent fed, clothed and raised me- why on earth would the income of my other parent (and incidentally my step parent, according to SFE's rules) be relevant?
I am lucky to have a great relationship with my other parent, and we receive maintenance payments as well- but those who are not so fortunate should not have to suffer on account of their absent parent's income!

[RedDaisyRed]

WE should also mention that in England an 18 year old child of divorced parents has a legal right to take the non resident parent to court for help with university costs. It's a weird anomaly because if you live with both parents there is no such right for either parent to give you a penny. This is why many divorce consent orders deal with the issue of which parent pays university costs. Anyone divorcing do make sure that is clear in the Order and ensure it is clear if it means first degree or second as well and what "tertiary education" means in the context of such divorce orders. My children will graduate debt free. Is that fair? The down side is they have had to endure a full time working mother all these years (if indeed that is a downside).

[RedDaisyRed]

Our situation is unusual as resident parent who earns a lot more than ex who doesn't pay anything and our court order says I (resident parent) pay all university costs presumably because his lawyers know that if we did not have that clause then the children have a legal right to apply to court for help at university from their non resident father so perfectly understandable their father's lawyers wrote that in and I am more than happy to fund them at university whereas I would not fund an adult child's cocaine habit or basket weaving course or whatever.

I very much doubt a judge would approve an agreed consent order where a resident mother who earned very little agreed the non resident richer father did not pay a penny of contribution to university costs - judges do not just rubber stamp these agreed orders. However if I were that low income mother on divorce I would sure as hell make sure my court sealed consent order on finances said he paid towards university costs.

In fact non resident fathers are often keener to pay a direct cost like this than just hand over randommoney to the ex they hate which you can understand so eg I paid the university fees and university residence bills direct for the children. I did not hand them a lot of cash and say I suggest you use it for the fees rather than parties. Anyway we have got slightly off topic (and people should remember Scottish law and university funding is very different - there I think parents have a duty to support some adult children up to a certain age).

[WhatICallAUsername]

Howcan I think those are all really valid points. I think for many though (fortunately not myself) many NRPs are also NC with their children for various reasons, and so the person applying for finance may feel their NRPs involvement is irrelevant, as they have not supported them, emotionally at least, through any other stage of the university application. And on a practical note, the NRP will often have other family so would definitely be less willing to support their older child.
Like I said, I am lucky to be supported by both parents (not financially by both), but I also worked part time last year and will do again next year so that the money I receive from the govt is used solely for essentials and any clothing/socialising I pay for myself

[WhatICallAUsername]

I think with regards to the last point Howcan parental means test is inherently flawed! Obviously if you do not live with your parents then their income is not taken into account.
It's ultimately a vicious circle- if the parents don't pay then the taxpayer hands over more money (although I hasten to add that we students will soon be taxpayers and pay for the next generation's university fees/maintenance), and if some parents do pay and the taxpayer pays less money then students from lower income families can't afford university at all!
I live in one of the most expensive university towns (outside of London). Without money from the government or my uni I would not be able to afford to live here, to such an extent that even with student finance loans I would possibly borrowing money from other loan services. it's a shitty situation either way, and i'm extremely glad that this new budget will not come into place until after I have finished university

[WhatICallAUsername]

They're all fair points.
I think ultimately the concern for me and now students approaching university age is that we will finish university with more debt than any other students before us. Despite the fact that this is being passed off as 'student tax', the fact remains that any amount of debt (however good the repayment schedule is) is a worrying and daunting prospect, and will put off poorer students from going to university. At least with the grant we felt like that amount wasn't completely ridiculous, the new budget will add on £15,000 of debt for a three year course

[RedDaisyRed]

I certainly don't like the idea of encouraging young people to get into debt and was lucky enough to pick a career and deliberately always worked full time to ensure my children could graduate without any debt, even when their riche friends were investing the whole student loan in an ISA - even that in my view is a bad idea as the interest is very low and you just end up ensnared in the student loans system with its inaccuracies, errors, problems in proving repayments and subject to changes in the rules over time.Perhaps we should have full grants for everyone getting A* at A level in decent subjects or some other utterly objective test.

[howabout]

Interesting RedDaisyRed. Having benefited from having a full grant myself and therefore being financially independent of my parents and financially responsible from age 17 I think I am intending to advise DC to take the full loan amount while they are studying. Further down the line I would consider helping with repayments to put them on the same debt free footing as I was on at the start of my working life but this may not make sense depending on their career / lifestyle choice.

[RedDaisyRed]

My older children paid £1k and then £3k fees so to treat the youngest 2 on the same basis will be more expensive for me. I accept that if they never earn more than £20k or whatever it is then they would not have to repay the loan so if they intended to be full time sty at home parents by the time they were 30 or run a cafe on a beach in Costa Rica or paint art works which never sell or work in a family business on a pittance or even run their own business but keep their income low and just make capital gains when they sell it then it seems silly to pay for them instead of having them take out the loan but I still stubbornly want to ensure they don't have that initial debt. I suspect it is more likely than not they will become higher rate tax payers in their 20s as have their older sisters too so it is probably more likely than not they would be having to pay it back and they are both boys so in our terribly sexist world it is much more likely they will not give up a good career to look after children on no or a low income.

[howabout]

I have 3 girls and am in Scotland. I think current Scottish set up makes it more likely that the majority will repay in full and thus a leveller playing field. This is an issue I have been thinking about in terms of wondering if people will start looking at how much student debt a potential partner carries with them. I also wonder if at the margin it will discourage women from maintaining FT careers.

[BreakingDad77]

I suspect it is more likely than not they will become higher rate tax payers in their 20s

Depends a lot on the industry they are going to go into, I'm a post grad working in my area for 17rs and still not a higher rate tax payer.

[RedDaisyRed]

Their sisters are City lawyers as am I and one of the younger ones is inclined to that so we're talking £100k by the time you are 30 if you're any good and are prepared to work hard so pretty likely student debt will have to be repaid. However they might both become stay at home fathers for life at 25 - you never know and then I'll be kicking myself for paying the £54k fees (2 children) plus rent/maintenance for the pair of them plus any post grad costs.

[Mygardenistoobig]

The only way to make nrp pay towards their child's university fees is to take the money directly from their income.

However take a look at the thread about nrp not paying msintenance and you can see that plenty of nrp are quite happy to absolve themselves from all responsibility.

I seriously doubt whether they will pay now their child is 18 when they refused to pay when their child was still at school.

Strange how the government STILL allow nrp to take the piss and relegate on their responsibility. ( sorry to de rail).

Yes let's punish young people instead.

[RedDaisyRed]

I think a top lawyer who is going to make hundreds of thousands a year but has a lot of student debt is not going to put off a partner whereas a 22 year old with no debt who earns £20k a year and never went to university might. As for the expense - yes but those of us who relieve the state of the burden of educating our children because we pay school fees in a sense find it is just a continuation of the 13 years of that which we have already had so in that sense is relatively painless.

[RedDaisyRed]

The dividend change will mean the person who owns the one person company will have less income so presumably less income to pay their ex and children. I suppose if those people change to being sole traders instead they might find it harder to hide income although even there your receipts are not your profits of course - you might buy in nails at £1000 and sell them for £1001 and your income £1 of course and that is not tax evasion or even avoidance, it is the truth.

[Dawndonnaagain]

In the news today

[RedDaisyRed]

I never realised the free grants were such a massive cost to the state. I thought a few hundred of the least well off would receive them.

"More than half a million students from poorer backgrounds currently receive a maintenance grant, at a cost to the taxpayer of about £1.57bn a year."