To rally Irish voters here and ask is anyone voting No tomorrow?

[LayMeDown]

I know there's lots of Irish on MN. I don't know anyone in RL voting No. But polls indicates it's tightening a lot. I'm getting scared it won't pass and my lovely brother and his partner will be left out in the cold again. What are you all hearing in your circles?

FYI for any non Irish there is a referendum tomorrow on introducing same sex marriage in Ireland.

[Anniegetyourgun]

I think a couple getting married in their 70s would be really sweet, wouldn't you? Or should they have their fertility tested first? (Actually some apparently DO have a problem with older people marrying, because they personally wouldn't want to shag someone of that age. Couples who grew old together are ok so long as they don't look as though they may still be having sex. People are peculiar sometimes. I wonder how they'll feel when they get to that age.)

[Anniegetyourgun]

Claiming you don't mind what people do in their bedrooms but denying them the right to be publicly partnered is really not being very enlightened, can you not see that at all? Do you feel you've made a massive concession by agreeing that they don't need to be arrested for the private bit, but treating them as normal human beings is a step too far? Really? (Mind you I am a prude and public displays of affection such as smooching sessions on street corners embarrass me. But I am an equal opportunities prude. And I'm not saying it should be stopped just to accommodate me.)

As FeijoaSundae indicates, every day in every street is a Straight Pride march that only ends when the shops shut. Flaunting sexuality is a constant. The day a gay couple feels they don't have to group up under a banner in order to flaunt is the day Gay Pride marches will cease to be. Until then they're needed.

[BathtimeFunkster]

Flaunting sexuality is a constant.

It's not though, is it?

It's like flaunting your breastfeeding - it's not really a thing that happens.

People who are together and holding hand or kissing are normally not remotely concerned with people looking at them. (Sometimes to an embarrassing extent.)

They're just doing something natural that feels right.

Maybe if they're about 13 they might be flaunting. But most people are not. There's no flaunt, just the simple act of affection.

That gay couples have to (or feel they have to) suppress the urge to express that affection is really shit. It's oppressive.

And we'll still need gay pride after it's gone, which one day it will be, just to remind us of how the world used to be and how far we've come.

[CrystalMcPistol]

Fed up of flaunting your sexuality & being ashamed to flaunt mine. I really don't care what you do in your bedroom as long as you love each other.

You clearly care very much what gay people get up to.

[madreloco]

Civil partnership DIDN'T give the same legal protections as marriage, that was the whole point. So give your opinion all you like, but don't lie about the facts. It was a consolation prize, which was hotly fought against by the same crowd fighting against marriage equality.

There is nothing in the definition of civil marriage that includes children. REligious marriage, maybe, but thats between you and your church, and is no excuse for legal discrimination.

[HarpyBeard]

And JustSaying, all that 'just so long as you love each other' stuff suggests a real fear/dislike of actual gay sexuality. Are gay people not allowed the same one-night stands/promiscuity/casual fuckbuddies/strings of disastrous or happy brief relationships as straights in your moral universe? Or is gay sex only allowed if it's terribly, terribly private, between two committed married people and takes place inside the now-legal marital bedroom?

Because it sounds as if you want to confine gay people to the straight sexual norms of a particularly buttoned-up version of the 1950s. Like now that they can get married, they all should, and get over all that jejune stuff like boffing people in nightclubs and going on marches wearing leather chaps.

[BathtimeFunkster]

Because it sounds as if you want to confine gay people to the straight sexual norms of a particularly buttoned-up version of the 1950s. Like now that they can get married, they all should, and get over all that jejune stuff like boffing people in nightclubs and going on marches wearing leather chaps.



I think quite a lot of yes voters do want exactly that.

[Andrewofgg]

madreloco In the UK c.p. was not so much a consolation prize as an hors d'oeuvre with the main dish to follow in the fullness of time - as it did. It was all the kitchen could offer at that time and a great deal better than nothing.

The world moves forward at its own speed. In the early Eighties there was a story about two Chairmen of local Conservative Parties at the Party Conference talking about Central Office.

One says Bad business. Our Member is retiring and we asked for someone they wanted to find a seat for who would suit us. And they offered a lecturer in a Polytechnic, a homosexual, and a woman.

Good God, old boy says the other That's awful. Whatever did you do?

Made the best of it. Took the bloody queer, of course.

That wouldn't even be told now, would it?

[madreloco]

I don't really like the "look at how far we've come" as an excuse for not going far enough.

And we are talking about Ireland here, where CP was very much a "ok, we don't want to give you anything, but if we have to, we'll give you a pale imitation of actual equality"

[Andrewofgg]

madreloco In a democratic society there are constraints on how far you can go. The human rights jurisprudence is intended to relax those constraints which is why there is sometimes a tension between human rights and democracy and it's no good pretending there isn't. Glad to see that that is not in this instance a problem in Ireland.

I don't know about the terms of c.p. in Ireland but in the UK it has all the attributes of marriage except the name. Some c.p. couples are not converting to marriage - even thought there was a window during which it could be done without fee - either because they are opposed to marriage (and there's a different issue for Ireland, what about couples who prefer c.p. to marriage?) or because they c.b.a. You can call your civil partner your wife or your husband and nobody will care which paperwork you've done.

[madreloco]

This thread is about Ireland. With respect, you don't seem to know anything about the law here, civil partnership here, or the differences between them (of which there are a great many). Telling us how it works in the UK doesn't add anything to this discussion.

The only pertinent point to make here is that there is still an area of your own country that does not have marriage equality, so perhaps you should focus your attention there.

[Andrewofgg]

madreloco A bit of comparison never hurt anyone.

As for Northern Ireland, it's a devolved matter, and they elect their own Assembly which votes on devolved matters on a cross-community basis. And so far it has voted No. Their decision.

As you say, this is about Ireland, so you tell me: If the vote had gone narrowly No, would there have been re-runs until the electorate got it right?

If we are to start having referenda here I would favour a seven-year rule rto prevent that.

[madreloco]

Comparison without understanding what you are comparing is pointless. Just because we are next door to you doesn't mean we are in anyway the same.

How do I know what would have happened if there was a no vote?

[Andrewofgg]

Actually, madreloco, a great deal of Irish statute law is either inherited from the times of the Union; or is in new Acts but contains text repeated from then; or is a direct copy of later UK law.

And in non-political matters the Irish courts often follow English precedent. In fact if you read the report of the Zappone case you will see that it draws heavily on the judgment in Wilkinson and Kitzinger which arose on identical facts; two women marrying in Canada seeking recognition of their marriage at home. In England they got recognition as a c.p., in Ireland they got nothing but that was before you had c.p.

But I agree that I know nothing of how similar Irish c.p. is to marriage.

There must have been some speculation about what would have happened if it had gone No.

[madreloco]

Speculation is meaningless. It's not something serious campaigners indulged in.

[Anniegetyourgun]

Maybe if they're about 13 they might be flaunting. But most people are not. There's no flaunt, just the simple act of affection.

I accept your point. I was taking a bit of a liberty with the word by using it more or less the way the pp appeared to be doing, ie affectionate stuff in public where people can see. As you say, mostly people don't even care whether they're observed or not, and although we might sometimes prefer it if they didn't, everyone should have the same right to do so.

[Anniegetyourgun]

... let me also explain the "prefer it if they didn't". I have no problem with hand holding/kissing in public. Nice. Cute. Writhing and squelching is a bit strong though - it's not wrong (I was one too, once) - there are times and places - not in the very middle of the commuting crowd at a city terminus. The point is though, "they" means everyone.

[Anniegetyourgun]

I was young once, that was supposed to say! Damn. Re-read it twice too.

[Koalafications]

So happy with the result.

[CrystalMcPistol]

Poor old Breda is in tomorrow's Irish Times. She doesn't seem to be a huge fan of democracy since the referendum went against her and her cronies.

She'll be staging a military coup next week, armed with rosary beads and miraculous medals.

[Koalafications]

That's such an ignorant line on the front page.

Is she confused by how democracy works?!

[GeorgeYeatsAutomaticWriter]

God almighty that Breda O'Brien article is risible. Here, if anyone fancies a laugh.

[Koalafications]

According to the lovely Brenda marriage produces children.

Fascinating, I always thought it was sex.

[Koalafications]

*Breda

[JasperDamerel]

That poor young hypothetical musical Irishwoman with her Danish genes and the loving Irish parents. I bet that she cries every night, wishing that she'd never been born or that, at the very least that the law had refused to recognise her non-biological mother as a legal parent.

"Oh, mammy" she says, "if only that nice Breda O'Brien had got her way. Everyone would have been so loving and tolerant and would have seen you as absolutely the equal of any heterosexual parent, and that time when I broke my arm when mum was away on a work trip there would have been no trouble with the paperwork. And I really appreciated all her love and care when she pointed out over and over again that my parents were selfish for creating me in the first place and that i was missing out on so much. "