to feel so disheartened at the family court system

[currantbunsforeyes]

Ex has been harassing me using the courts for years. He's had prohibited steps order placed on me by making up lies that I'm a flight risk, appealed decisions, etc.... This has gone on for years until I was awarded sole res due to his ongoing harassment.

Despite this he's still taking me to court for shared res. There was a stay (prevention order) to stop him for doing this for two years but now they are up I'm back in court. The judge has asked for new hearing and agreed to ex's request to leave out old judgements from bundle! WTF!!! The old judgements shows how his harassment and constant harassing using courts led to me ending up with sole res.

I feel like there is no point, no consistency. I've been doing this now for eight years. PS I'm generous with contact. Dcs have alternate weekends and mid week overnight stays with him.

Are the family law court system that messed up?

[HardToDanceWithTheDevilOnYourB]

I could go on....

[Aeroflotgirl]

Oh my god hard that is absolutely horrific, what about the Children Act. At that age, he is old enough to make his own decision. You just cannot imagine it. With the Natalie Allman case, it does not matter that he nearly killed their mother and made them motherless, that they witnessed it and was covered in her blood. It does not matter to the courts that they were so traumatised they could not speak. It does not matter that they don't want to see him, he is tge only one that matters, in the eyes of the court system . Abusive Fathers use contact, not because they want a relationship with their children, it's an extension of tge control of the mother.

[Droflove]

How anyone shares a child with another adult they don't love is beyond me. It's a situation that gives people such power to cause each other pain.

[Spero]

I don't want to minimise the Natalie Allman case - I am surprised there was any kind of contact order - but as I understand it the order was only for provision of information two or three times a year, it wasn't for any kind of face to face contact.

The problem remains that these men are one half of the children's genetic identity and it can cause real problems if the children don't have any real sense of who they are.

You can argue, often convincingly, that the court doesn't always get the balance right, but it does have to try to strike a balance between the harm that is caused by a continuing relationship, versus the harm that is caused by no relationship at all.

[Aeroflotgirl]

Spero in the Natalie Allman case, I believe he is still in prison, who's to say he won't apply for supervised contact when he leaves, and gets it, as Hardtodance, has pointed out, may even get unsupervised. Yes the father is one half of the genetic make up of that child, but if he is unsafe, and abusive then that really does not matter.

[HardToDanceWithTheDevilOnYourB]

My brother has never met his dad, he was raised by my dad his step-father. After watching my DD go through what she has He says he is GRATEFUL to his dad for walking away. He is a fully trained nurse working in the intensive care unit at the local hospital, he has a wife and they have a son together. He has no criminal record, no illegitimate children, no drugs or alcohol problems. He is a decent, educated, hardworking husband and father and not knowing his biological father has not effected him in any way. Why? Because he has a father, the man who raised him, provided for him, nurtured him, made sacrifices and put him first.
The fact that someone happens to ejaculate in the right place at the right time does not make them a dad, would you consider a man who walked into a sperm back made his deposite and walked out to be a dad? What about the man who took the sperm, created a life and was there each and every day for it, is he not a dad? Or not a good enough one?
To suggest that not knowing biological parents damages more than abuse is absurd, ALL children who were adopted or IVF with donated sperm/eggs are not damaged.
There is far far more o family than DNA. There is a damn sight more research showing damage cause by maternal deprivation yet this is now ignore and young babies are sent on contact.
Mothers are threatened with losing their children for not abiding by a court order as it is considered child abuse, but fathers can stab, rape, abuse mother and children and still get contact because it would damage them not to see them?
The research is one sided and subjective. Ofcourse it is in every child's best interest for their family to stay together. But when a family splits that's not possible and having contact doesn't fix it. my daughter is prevented from having a ordinary relationship with her mother and a wonderful step-father, so that a man who wanted her aborted can punish me for not doing as I was told and having the audacity to move on with me life. She absolutely, without a shred of doubt would be better off never having known him! My DH is a billion times the father that sperm doner is.

[HardToDanceWithTheDevilOnYourB]

My brother has told me that now and again throughout his life he has wondered about half-siblings out there that he may have, but he doesn't need to wonder about his father because his father is at home with mum and he can see him whenever her likes.

[Spero]

To suggest that not knowing biological parents damages more than abuse is absurd

Which is why I didn't say that. What i said was that harms have to be balanced. And for some children, never knowing anything about their genetic identity is harmful. The Judge has to look at all the circumstances of each case. lack of contact MAY be more harmful than exposure to a parent who is less than great in many respects.

Aeroflot - I agree with you. I would have thought the NA case was a prime example of an order for no contact - he tried to kill her in front of the children iirc. Again, I would have been very interested to see how the arguments were put in court in that case. I don't know what was said about the children's attachment to him for eg. There have been cases where even where one parent has murdered the other parent, the children have still wanted to see them in prison and contact has been arranged.

This is why these cases are so, so difficult. Children can still love and want to see a parent who objectively is a pretty poor specimen of humanity.

all of this has to be considered and weighed by the court. There is a presumption that contact is in the child's best interests but that presumption can be shifted by evidence.

[HardToDanceWithTheDevilOnYourB]

I realise my case was slightly different, I left when I was pregnant, he was a stranger to my DD, she did not love or miss him! Yes older children losing a man that has been in their life every day, a good and decent man, I have no doubt at all that would destroy children.
But even when children have lived with fathers, if they were awful, frightening bullies, there would not be much of a bond left to break, the damage is already done.

[Spero]

Sorry I was re-reading (am bored on train) and realised I missed this.

When I read about a 14 year old be being sent to a youth offenders centre for refusing to go on contact with a man who had sexually abused him and made him watch while he raped him mum

Can you tell me where you read this? It just seems inconceivable to me that this could ever happen. Do you mean a boy was convicted of a criminal offence for failing to see a rapist?

A 14 year old boy would almost certainly be 'Gillick competent' i.e. able to make up his own mind about who he saw and when. Usually I find judges very reluctant to make any kind of order about 14 year olds because they can and do vote with their feet.

I would be very interested to know where you read that.

[HardToDanceWithTheDevilOnYourB]

I read it around 5 years ago online. the case had spanned a very long time and the boy had been refusing to go for years. He had demanded to be given his own guardian or something and be a party of the proceedings. He stated his reasons for not wanting contact they refused to listen to him saying it was all lies and that he had been brainwashed by his mother. Orders were made and repeatedly breached, and the boy was sent to juvenile centre over it. I have no idea of o would be able to find it again. But it was a proper article not just on a forum.

[Aeroflotgirl]

In the NA case she has said that her ds were so traumatised they could not speak for a while and had to have threapy. They hate their father, calling him the bad and nasty man. They have ripped up his letters to them, but she has had to piece them back together and keep them, or held in contempt of court. which is awful.

Yes that was horrid hardtodance was it in the UK or US. I agree with Spero, from what I have heard, the courts usually take the teenagers wishes into consideration, as they are considered olde enough to make up their own minds. It is awful, what goes on, you learn something new everyday. Spero has said that she has never come across the cases that some describe on here, but does not mean it does not go on, you never know you might come across one one day in your career. Yes I totally agree, that children need to know their identity, but not at the expense of their safety and well being. Nothing wrong with putting together a file about the dad, for the child, rather like they do with children who have been adopted, so though the child does not have to see the father, they have information about him if they wish.

[Babynamechange]

According to the screw report from the family law week it is widespread
www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed104458

[Spero]

I tried to read that report, but the link is no longer working. Thus I couldn't check this assertion and what is was based on

Despite histories of violence, children refusing contact or expressing terror and distress, unsupervised contact was found to be routinely ordered to abusive fathers

I would like to know what is meant by 'routinely ordered' - in what percentage of cases?

I would also like to know what is meant by 'histories of violence' - I can confidently say that any case where the father had a criminal record for offences of violence there was never any 'routine' orders for contact. I would also be very surprised that children who expressed 'terror' would be having contact. However, I have very rarely come across children who express 'terror'.

In such serious circumstances I find that these are rarely private law proceedings, but have become care proceedings and the LA is involved.

I do accept that there can be more difficulties when the violence/abuse is less clear cut, particularly when it is a case of emotional abuse. The problem the judges face is that the evidence in these cases is often not as easy to identify as waters get muddied over the years. I think emotional abuse is often not as easy to identify as for example, a punch in the face which is pretty unambiguous.

I wrote this as a guest post for the Pink Tape blog in 2011 - its a bit old but you might still find it interesting.

www.pinktape.co.uk/uncategorized/kind-debate-domestic-violence/

[HardToDanceWithTheDevilOnYourB]

And what about the human rights act to live a life free from abuse? If someone is an abuser they are an abuser, abuse is damaging fact!
My brother is a living breathing example of not knowing biological father damages children being slightly inaccurate but have you ever ever met an abused child that wasn't damaged?
Thanks to the courts deciding my abusive ex is low risk my daughter is self harming at 6 years old. Exposing herself to boys and asking them into her bed. She had no relationship.with her dad despite this order because he is not a father he is an abuser but she has also had her relationship with her mother severely damaged because she is continuously told I hate her, I'm evil, I'm a liar. She is drip fed poison from the second she is with him. He has told her that our side of the family is bad and his side are good, that she needs to change her surname to his because she wants to be on the good side, that she SHOULD have his name but I have her the wrong name because I'm evil and wanted to hurt him. He told this to a 5 year old girl and she has since repeatedly asked me to change her name and said she doesn't want to be on the bad side! But he is "low risk" and what I deserve this for staying with him? I deserve this for wanting to see the best in someone even though there was non to be found.
My daughter is so badly damaged by that man that she doesnt have a ordinary relationship with EITHER of her parents. She actually believes that I send her to be at 7:30 because I hate her and want to get rid of her by sending her to bed, but that he loves her the most and can't bare to spend a single second away from her not even when she's sleeping that's why he lets her stay up til midnight! But he's "low-risk" and I'm not allowed to say a word because then I'm "badmouthing" her dad and I'm an abuser.
We have had so many referrals to SS and family support workers and every time they come in believing that I'm the problem, telling me he's her dad, he can do what he wants, it's his choice, I'm letting Emily play me, she's only telling me what she thinks I want to her but every time they end with, we can help you, we can't stop him, take it back to court.
Where the court believe contact is always in the child's best interest EVEN in cases of abuse so long as someone decides it's "low-risk" it's a very dangerous CHANCE to take with a child's life.
I believe I will lose my daughter in the next few years because I AM a human being and being abused through my child day after day is killing me inside, watching the damage and fall out and the effect it has on DD AND my other children, when she comes home hating her brothers because he has told her I love them more and they are crying because they've missed her but she won't even look.at them! It cripples me, when my whole household is woken by DD's screams after yet another nightmare because he's said/done/shown her something inappropriate. DD is abused by this man, I am abused by this man, my husband and my son's are abused by this man but it's fine, because he's low risk and DD probably won't die so tough, get on with it. It's starting to feel like I am going to have no choice but to walk away from my DD, the only way I can protect myself and my family is to hand her over and never see her again. I'm preventing from protecting her because because what she will die if she doesn't see him? No she won't at all, but that has to be the measure of risk to stop hear seeing him?
Not knowing good fathers damages children but knowing bad father damages them as much and even more in some cases.
While I agree that a bad partner does not necessarily make a bad father when the abuse is extended to the child it is never ever beneficial.

[Aeroflotgirl]

Yyy hard it's very easy to comment if you are in an outside position, especially within the legal profession, you have to be objective and quite clinical, but when you are living it, like hard baby and mummy, you see the damaging effects on your child tgat this court ordered contact is having, it is very real. Contact has to be first and foremost, for the benefit of the child, contact with an abusive parent is not. There is a feeling in the family court that, abusive NRP will not be abusive to the child, even though tgey were abusive to the RP, that assumption is wrong. They can and do abuse the child. Contact is sometimes used to abuse and control the RP, not to build up a relationship with their child. In these situations, contact can be extremly damaging for the child. Hard, baby, and mummy children are testimony to that!

[Aeroflotgirl]

Hard have you contacted Police and SW, have school raised concerns about your dd over sexual behaviour. You must get SS and Police involved.

[Aeroflotgirl]

Go to your GP and explain the situation and ask for a referral to a child clinical psychologist.

[Aeroflotgirl]

The psychologist can present a report to SS and court on the psychological effects tgat this contact is having on your dd.

[HardToDanceWithTheDevilOnYourB]

I have, even the school made a referral about the sleeping arrangements, she told the headteacherr that she is not allowed to wear knickers in bed when she sleeps with her dad. They did nothing said I have to take it back to court. We've had 3 child services referrals in 2 years from nursery manager, primary school head teacher, and children's centre manager but each time it's "take it back to court"

[Aeroflotgirl]

I have just read that you were involved with SS, they were useless. Definitely referral to a child psychologist, CAHMS. I would go back to SS, she is being equally exploited and manipulated. You have to keep fighting hard. You are the only one who loves your dd. Have you talked to the safeguarding officer at your dd school? Is she displaying sexual behaviour at school? If she is, this will be a great cause for concern, it will be flagged, as she is extremly little and it's very unusual behaviour. I am fir you. Your poor dd

[Aeroflotgirl]

Definitely go to GP for a referral to a child psychologist, their evidence could provide support for you in court. Is horrific, lessons have not been learned. I thought since JImmy Saville, SS and professionals working with child protection, would be on the ball. What about Police.

[HardToDanceWithTheDevilOnYourB]

I've been reporting domestic violence to my GP for 9 years, the court wouldn't even entertain it, even though DD is only 6. Ex suggested that I made it all up before DD was even conceived to stop him having contact with future children and this just seemed to be accepted. Sometimes I really do think I could walk in the court room with a knife sticking out my back with his fingerprints all over it and he would say I did it myself to frame him and it would just be accepted

[HardToDanceWithTheDevilOnYourB]

A parent even made a complaint about my DD flashing him out the classroom window, I walked into the school and overheard one of the teachers telling her off over it, when I explained.ed about what goes on and how she regularly does things like ... pull her knickers up her bum and say that "sexy girls wear knickers like this" I was just told that it's normal behaviour of she spends time with older siblings. She has older cousins over there, so apparently that makes it perfectly ok.

[HardToDanceWithTheDevilOnYourB]

I am constantly accused of being petty and nit-picking, constantly told this is either all in my head, exaggerated, completely fabricated. Or that DD "plays" me to get her way.
It's all just excuses to ignore what my daughter is going through because it to damn controversial and to much hard work to bother with.