A child is not a 'basic human right'

[aibuyes]

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2982669/Young-woman-children-denied-IVF-NHS-s-taking-case-Strasbourg-having-child-basic-human-right.html

Warning; DAILYFAIL LINK

But really, would anyone think a child is a basic human right? I sympathise for the woman that she is unable to have a baby, but I really disagree her that she wants NHS funding to have a child, even though her partner has a daughter that by their own admission, never stays over (so, I tend to think he is not being an active father role in her life, but that is reading between the lines).

She is a barmaid, he left his job as a supermarket manager (currently unemployed) so are unable to afford private treatment.

I can think of so many other things the NHS can better spend their money on!

[buffyp]

I am fed up of being told I can't have a opinion on a subject just because I haven't experienced it. I am lucky to have had four children however I acknowledge this was a blessing not a God given right. No I haven't experienced infertility but I have experienced the loss of my oldest child from surgery to remove a brain tumour which was highly cancerous as it turned out. Even if my son had survived his prognosis was shit due to s severe lack of funding in childhood brain cancer. While there are people still dying from not being able to have access to expensive treatments then no imo this woman should most certainly not win her case. I sympathise and would have felt devastated if I couldn't have kids but that is my opinion. If that makes me a hard faced cow then tough shit frankly because it's about time people started waking up to what the NHS can afford to fund and where priorities should be.

[Shockers]

Leaving aside the fact that he doesn't see his other child (because I don't know the circumstances around that), perhaps there should be a stipulation that one partner is employed and can provide for any child born as a result of IVF on the NHS.

[CatnipMouse]

Just wanted to say FyreFly that local authorities have no role in deciding whether/how much IVF is available in an area, it's all the NHS.

And more generally in response to several posters, we can never provide all the healthcare and social care that people want/need, without spending 100% of the tax income. Choices have to be made, this can feel uncomfortable but it is true. Spending NHS money will always require juggling many priorities. However to set it up as IVF versus cancer treatment is a bit simplistic; we can usually have a bit of both.

[CatnipMouse]

Shockers, really? Because no restriction like that exists for people who can conceive naturally. Where would you set the income limits to make sure that the poorest can't access this service? £20k? £30k?

While we are at it maybe we should make sure that poor people can't access maternity care, after all why should we support people to have babies if they might struggle financially?

[Willabywallaby]

I do think we should use the NHS to look after the living, not to create more lives. But that doesn't take into account the personal trauma to childless people.

[aprilanne]

while it probably is not a basic human right it is no more ridicoulous that say foriegn criminals .saying they cant leave the country after sentence because they have family here and are intitiled to a family life .now that is terrible

[Trazzletoes]

april but despite what you may hear in the media that is exceptionally rarely a successful argument. I work in that area and have personally seen maybe 1 or 2 succeed in 10 years.

[Iasip]

April, the criminality does weigh very heavily against them.

There's a difference between interfering with existing family life & a family life that doesn't exist yet. This wouldn't breach article 8 (because her family life is with her partner) and would have absolutely no chance of breaching article 3.

[namechangewontchange]

Honestly... if they can fund boob jobs and sex changes for goodness sake through the NHS then why can't IVF be available to these women in need? They will spend absolute thousands changing a mans body into a womans followed by all the aftercare but refuse people IVF treatment??? It seems a little backwards and yes I believe it is a human right to have a child. Have we not been put here to reproduce?

[GallicIsCharlie]

Have we not been put here to reproduce?

Thanks So I am pointless, along with 25% of all women in the UK.

Luckily, I don't believe I was "put" here so don't care what you think about it. But FFS.

[countessmarkyabitch]

We haven't been put here at all, and even if we had, I'm not a fucking incubator, I'm a person. Are you saying that all the people who can't or don't have children are somehow unnatural or without purpose? Because very offensive

OF course its not a human right to have a child, its a ridiculous notion.

[caryam]

There are two separate issues here. First of all what the NHS should spend its money on. Secondly is it a human right to have a baby.

Of course it is not a human right to have a baby. A baby is not a possession. Human rights are basic things we need such as shelter, food, to be free from torture, have a fair trial.

[namechangewontchange]

Obviously if you can't have children on medical grounds then that is not your fault but IVF should be offered to woman who need it. Procedures such as sex changes and boob jobs on the NHS should be scrapped

[caryam]

What about breast implants for women who have had mastectomies because of breast cancer?

[MauriceTheCat]

Do I think children are a right? No! Neither the right to bear or raise a child - a child is human being.

Do I think we need a single pan-country IVF policy? Yes but how many tries, 1, 2 or 3? or more? all women? or couples as a entity?

Who should decide if starting a cycle is appropriate? the Doctor who can advise on weight and life style changes to maximise your chances or the woman who is seeing all her friends conceiving without such limits being placed on them?

If I have 3 tries with my first husband and he leaves me should I have a reset button if I want a child on my own? and another reset button with a second partner?

If it takes me three goes to conceive first time - do I get another reset button for a second child or a third or a forth or a fifth.

If I conceive three children naturally - can I access it for the forth?

And I say this as a Fertility Ethics specialist - who after 4 yrs of trying had to go private as my DH has two girls from his first marriage, couldn't adopt because my husbands age and ended up with a private adoption after the parents of my godchildren were killed and we kept our promise to act as their guardians.

We have promised to fund a couple of rounds for my step-daughter if her current NHS cycle fail because I feel strongly about it but she knows my feeling about going and going and going

[adora1985]

I think the 'child is a basic right' is a red herring, and she won't get anywhere with that line. It's about being able to access the help that's needed in order to conceive due to a medical condition.
If her partner didn't already have a child from a previous relationship she would be able to access the help needed to have a biological child of her own. Because her partner has that child, which isn't part of their relationship (which why don't know why that's the case) she won't receive help, which I think is wrong. Her partners child is not her own, and won't ever be. If she was able to act as a stepmum that is one thing, but the child already has her own biological mother, and being a step parent isn't the same as having your own child.
I'm not sure what she's jumped directly to IVF either, if she has PCOS then there are a large range of treatments that are available to her, with ICSI being the last line of treatment after all other are exhausted. Why they've gone straight for IVF seems weird, it seems a little bit of a publicity stunt to me.

[countessmarkyabitch]

I don't think she'd be eligable anyway, never mind the boyfriend. If its an otherwise uncomplicated case of pcos she has has years to try all of the other options before looking at IVF. There is every chance she could conceive without icsi or ivf.

[Naty1]

Like a PP said the situation in the article is ridiculous.
Pcos doesnt need ivf.
It doesnt necessarily mean you cant conceive, you could be very fertile, subfertile or take years but get there in the end
She could take metformin
Have clomid - both on nhs
Then pay for ivf.
I dont believe the consultant said it in that way to her - i suspect he said ... You could struggle to conceive but worst case scenario you could always have ivf. (Im not sure they would have told a 17? Yo they would get 2 rounds of ivf as criteria are constantly changing some down to 1 some 0 and also depend as she has found on circs so children already and smoking/weight. Which are determined locally not nationally.)
I am afraid i agree about him - he is not working, is he paying for existing child. Instead of complaining about what wont be given for free, he does need to take some responsibility for his child and potential child.
I would say if they cant afford £5k for treatment they cant afford to support a child but i understand it is likely to be much more than £5k for treatment.
At 23 and 24 with nothing that actually prevents pregnancy there is no hard to her to keep ttc. She has 12yrs before ivf chances decrease.
I dont agree with nhs ivf when either or both have a child already because:
As in this example he is 24 with 1 child already, if he has ivf for no2, in 3 yrs will he be asking for it to be paid for again with another woman, where does that end?
It is then unfair to couples who have a child together through ivf or not.
Everyone should pay if it is either of yours second child.
I dont think people who havent experienced infertility, already have a child or several can really understand - or at least they really dont seem to or have empathy. It is like the loss of a child, and the life you expected, but in a way like cancer because you often feel hope that despite diagnosis everything will be ok in the end. You go through this for usually yrs, well say 2ttc then maybe a yr of treatment.
Yes you are (probably) not dying but can have long term effects from the cause of infertility
Pcos - diabetes, high bp, weight gain, heart attacks
Hypothyroidism- treatment for life, susceptible to other autoimmune conditions, tired, constipated, cold, mc.
And overall yrs of stress.

[jellybeans]

She should be able to have it on the NHS in my opinion.

[countessmarkyabitch]

Even when she doesn't need it?

[manicinsomniac]

I sympathise with her but, in order for me to support IVF on the NHS, 2 things would have to happen:

1. The same rights would have to be available to single women and same sex couples.
   
   
2. IVF would have to have a much higher success rate

[Pasithea]

We can not have children and where turned down for adoption due to my illness/disability.

I'm very sorry for these couples but sometimes it's just not to be and you have to just suck it up and move on.