A child is not a 'basic human right'

[aibuyes]

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2982669/Young-woman-children-denied-IVF-NHS-s-taking-case-Strasbourg-having-child-basic-human-right.html

Warning; DAILYFAIL LINK

But really, would anyone think a child is a basic human right? I sympathise for the woman that she is unable to have a baby, but I really disagree her that she wants NHS funding to have a child, even though her partner has a daughter that by their own admission, never stays over (so, I tend to think he is not being an active father role in her life, but that is reading between the lines).

She is a barmaid, he left his job as a supermarket manager (currently unemployed) so are unable to afford private treatment.

I can think of so many other things the NHS can better spend their money on!

[BubblesInMyBath]

I really wish I could just adopt...

I'd love to.

But my health issues prevent it, along with not owning enough bedrooms.

If I could naturally conceive my bio children can share a room, and my health issues don't mean I lose my kids.

I actually work with children in the care system though and realise that it's not babies that get handed over in the UK, it's vulnerable and often severely phusically and emotionally damaged/challenging older children who require far more than just people who want to have kids. I do believe people who say their adopted DC feel no different to bio ones but I'm sure a lot of the time adoptive parents go through hell bio parents avoid because of whats happened to that child prior to a placement

[WayfaringStranger]

I have no beef with IVF being offered on the NHS and I think the "just adopt" comments are ignorant, at best. However, I still don't believe anyone has a human right to access IVF for free.

[Chillyegg]

But IVF isn't for free we all pay into the system to pay for the NHS.

[WayfaringStranger]

Sorry, should have said "I don't believe anyone has a human right to access IVF on the NHS." I didn't say, I don't believe she should be entitled to it, just that it is not a human right.

[countessmarkyabitch]

I don't think there really are many basic human rights, as in this idea there are inalienable certainties that always apply. All "rights" are societal and they change depending on the culture and prevailing attitudes of the time. Even the accepted human rights laid out in the UN universal declaration can all be limited and constrained.
So no, there is definitely no human right to have a baby.

[Littlegiraffe]

"Just adopt" pft. Clearly clueless.

I would've thought that the NHS mission statement (or has it changed to core principles more recently?) about improving the health and wellbeing of patients is more relevant.

Infertility appears to be accepted as a "condition" (whatever that means, but a simply Google search brings up a lot of NHS results).

Whilst you might have a couple who aren't completely devastated by this news, I would think the likelihood is that most would be. A couple whose plans for the future are gone, and who are effectively in mourning for what can never be. That is going to have an emotional impact on them. For ever. I am in favour of IVF for this reason.

Not so sure about the basic human right aspect to be honest. Leaning towards that being an elaborate claim.

[FuckOffGroundhog]

I'm a bit about a man who is obviously not supporting his other child financially and from the sound of it not even having her over very much (if at all) being helped to have another child. Also as someone who has PCOS it can take some years but most people do eventually get pregnant with it. She's still quite young. I don't think IVF would be a good idea yet. Also she'd have to lose weight before they helped her anyway. (this is what I was told when I was trying to get pregnant, not me fat bashing)

Also PCSO? Come on Daily Mail that's the second typo in an online newspaper I've seen today.

[GallicIsCharlie]

Get over it, some people can't have children naturally, it's not a basic human right, it's the luck of the draw!

I'm afraid I agree with this. I couldn't have children. If the "right to a family life" were interpreted as strictly as this woman appears to want, people like me could force our councils or the NHS to provide us with partners, children & grandchildren

I understand that she's feeling devastated but disagree with whoever encouraged her to try & abuse the law this way.

I also (just going on this thread, mind) suspect she'd be better advised to get rid of her cocklodger and start living an all-round better life.

[LucyBabs]

I'm actually quite confused about a poster who said infertility is the same grief as "losing a husband or a child"
I lost a child and my Mam and Dad.. Infertility would have been a walk in the park!

No having children is not a human right its a privilege

[mellicauli]

Actually she still has a right to try to have a child. Just not with this man.

[FuckOffGroundhog]

Infertility does bring a horrible grief. And unlike with a death, it's very difficult to get beyond it. You always have this constant hope and it's dashed every month for years. People love to tell you about their uncle who had no sperm and his wife who had no ovaries and how they still managed to have 6 kids..

If you haven't experienced it it's difficult to get your head around it.

[Bilberry]

I have lost two children, I have also had fertility treatment, and yes to have to accept you will never have a child is just as much a loss. What do you lose when someone dies? You lose your future with them, you lose the experiences you would have had, the shared dreams. Just because a child hasn't had a past doesn't mean for those who are longing for them that they didn't have a future accepted and just as precious as for a child that has been conceived and born. When my children died I wished I could have had just one more day with them and yet the infertile don't even get a single day. Nor it is just a child you are losing, it is also all your dreams of family life, of parent hood, of grandchildren. It could also be your carefree 20s and 30s are lost as you count down the months, inject, hope, feel agony and pain at failure. Infertility is anything but a walk in the park and to suggest so is an insult to those who suffer from it.

[LucyBabs]

I'm not saying it doesn't bring a horrible grief fuckoff
I can't however compare it to living, breathing, humans who are in our lives and then lost.. sorry

[LucyBabs]

I think bilberry its an insult to compare losing a pregnancy/ potential child to losing a much loved already born child or parent..
I don't deny it would be unbearable month after month being denied the child you long for.

[Willabywallaby]

Who pays for her to take her case to the European court? Surely she can't afford it herself? Maybe the IVF would be cheaper?

[BubblesInMyBath]

Neither should be compared

But they are both grief

It's like saying you found it easier to lose your baby than a teenager because you had them less time - nobody would (I hope) think that

I don't think there is a heirarchy to grief.

[Chillyegg]

I don't think what billberry said is an insult! She's talking about her own feeling and experience.
It would be insulting if she was flippant like some are in this thread but she she certainly isn't.

[LucyBabs]

Many are giving their own feelings on their own personal loss.

I didn't compare losing a baby and a teenager either

[Chillyegg]

I'm confused by what you mean lucybabs?

[FyreFly]

I would just like to say that there is a very real chance I may not be able to have children without considerable medical interference. At the moment it is an unknown quantity, but I would be lying if I said it doesn't prey on my mind.

That being said, in times of austerity like now, when the NHS is already squeezed to the limit, I believe that non-essential services like IVF should be stopped. If we cannot care for the population we already have - and it is patently clear we are struggling to - it is nonsensical to spend money trying to increase said population.

I am not suggesting IVF should not be available on the NHS full stop; but it should only be available if local authorities can afford it. Take care of those who are here first and foremost. Then, if there is money left over, offer IVF again by all means.

[BubblesInMyBath]

Lucybabs - I never suggested you did

I suggested that comparing grief is impossible by using that example

[countessmarkyabitch]

She's 23, and the boyfriend is an unemployed dad with one child already he barely sees. Also there are lots of things that can be done to boost fertility in cases of PCOS, IVF is not a first line treatment. If this is some kind of test case its a really bloody bad one.

However its more likely that the DM has over stated the case from all angles. She plans to take her case to the EU courts, doesn't mean she'll get anywhere near it (I doubt they would be eligable for any legal aid and they are obviously broke). Not much of a story really.

[GallicIsCharlie]

I hope things work out well for you, Fyre. I would like to add (from the other side, as it were) that infertility isn't the end of the world. It's a change of landscape - always very difficult to reframe our futures, embrace different possibilities, and put away old hopes.

[babyiwantabump]

From the article it sounds like they haven't even tried to get pregnant yet and have just jumped straight on the IVF route . Surely they should at least try first?

My cousin has severe endometriosis and PCOS and it took a while and in the end she had a baby without any treatment.

Surely there are other things that can be tried first aswell?

I also think that maybe the partner should get a job first as they are not really bringing a child into an ideal situation really.