to have not let this go with my dad and ended up in an argument? (TRIGGER WARNING: Rape)

[Bogeyface]

Locally there has been relatively important public figure accused of rape.

I was discussing it with my mother and she said that she doesnt know what she thinks, but I said that the fact it got to court at all, especially taking into account that it happened several years ago, suggests that the CPS must have some pretty damning evidence. I said that considering that most reported rapes dont get to court because of a lack of evidence, the fact that this one did says that there is something in the accusation. She conceded that I had a point but I could see that she wasnt convinced.

Then my dad says "Well its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, she says he did, he says he didnt, its probably a misunderstanding" and I was really cross and said that I was appalled that he viewed rape like that. I said that his attitude was one of the reasons that many women dont bother reporting rape because they know that the chances of conviction are tiny, as most of the jury will have that attitude. Anyway, it went on and we ended up having a row about it, which shook me, I havent hada row with dad in years and years. He stormed off and obviously thinks that I am in the wrong and should accept that the accused probably didnt do it as the woman sounded "like a piece of work" (DONT GET ME STARTED ON THAT ).

Mum says I should have left it and not got into a row, I said that I would get into a row with anyone with that attitude to women and to rape. I asked her how she would feel if I was the victim and someone said that about me, she sort of shrugged and said that I still should have let it go.

I had to ring them about something a few minutes ago and dad was really short and snotty with me on the phone, not like him at all, but I was damned if I was going to let a comment like that go unchallenged. The court case is ongoing and if I mention it again I just know that mum will try to shut me up about it, rather than "make a fuss" and "wind your dad up".

WIBU? I wasnt was I? Questioning myself now!

[TendonQueen]

Yes it's a bit of a double standard for you to be expected to back down and not 'wind your dad up' but that presumably he can hold whatever opinion he wants even if he antagonises you with it in conversation.

It doesn't come across well that your dad is being short with you either. You said you haven't rowed with him for years, but has he always been like this when you have done? I would totally ignore the snottiness.

[SardineQueen]

Individuals who are not involved directly with cases are of course allowed to have opinions as to the guilt or innocence of anyone about anything really.

It's not illegal or out of order to say that in order for a case (of anything) to get to court, there must be some evidence and that the CPS must believe that they have a good chance of a guilty verdict, as this is the process in getting things to court in the first place. It is also fair to say that if a case of rape has got to court then, more so than in other crimes, the police and CPS must believe there is a good chance of a guilty verdict.

I mean really if the CPS take someone to court then they think that person is guilty right? But we are all to pretend that is not the case and say everyone is innocent even if we are totally unrelated to it in every way?

Yeah not sure, I think that many people will have opinions about lots of things and that is normal and the way of things, and unless they are eg on the jury then that is perfectly normal and standard.

[Blistory]

It's confusing because it's a legal concept - it doesn't actually mean that a person is innocent of a crime. It's simply that a jury has to start with the presumption of innocence and be persuaded otherwise in order to ensure a fair trial.

Nor doesn't mean that the complainer is lying, simply that they need to prove their case.

Outwith the justice system, it's obvious that someone who committed a crime is not innocent just because they are yet to be convicted. The purpose of it is to ensure that we do not punish someone until we are certain - it's a holding position to minimise damage.

I believe you and innocent until proven guilty are two very different concepts and you can hold both to be true.

[Bogeyface]

I dont remember if he was like this, but he does sulk when he has fallen out with mum (a much more regular occurrence), but then so does she, they can be off with each other for a few days after a humdinger.

I think the reason she wanted me to belt up was because she actually agrees with him but doesnt want to admit it.

[SardineQueen]

The "We Believe You" campaign is about believing people when they say they have been sexually assaulted, abused or raped, given the track record in society and with the authorities of not believing victims of these crimes.

It is in the context of an internet forum where people often share their experiences, and in the context of hoping that society and the authorities will stop dismissing victims when they try to talk about these things.

It is nothing to do with saying "every person accused of X crime is guilty".

Imagine your friend or your child comes to you and says "I've been raped" you proceed on the basis that she is telling the truth. You don't say "well that's what you say but I can't possibly accept it as the truth until someone has been found guilty in a court of law" do you.

[SardineQueen]

Oh and re your dad I'm sorry you had a row, you were right not to back down, you are a better person than me though I would have found the arguing + sensitive subject + it's my dad just too much and I'm not very good at confrontation so would probably have changed the subject quite early on in the convo.

You did the right thing though really attitudes like his are prevalent in society and cause a lot of problems.

[Blistory]

If you were burgled, would your Dad believe you ? Would he believe that the person who did it was innocent ?

Regardless of whether or not the person charged with burglary was the right person, or was convicted, you're still the victim of a crime. What happens in court doesn't negate that. It may find the person not guilty but that is very different from saying that the burglary didn't take place or that you were a victim.

You're probably the first person to challenge your Dad on his thinking and it's difficult but the reality is that attitudes like his do women serious harm even if he's the nicest man in the world in other ways.

[Dawnywoo]

So sad. If it is rape then it is rape.

[ocelot41]

YANBU. Unfortunately attitudes like that are rife in that generation.I went through an attempted rape at knifepoint (managed to get away thank heavens). I was just a student so went home for the hols and finally told my parents what had happened. DF's reaction 'Oh you do get yourself into some silly situations ocelot!' Funnily enough, our relationship never really recovered from that one.

[Bogeyface]

thats the thing, he is the nicest man in every other way! I was so shocked and I think that contributed to me reacting when he got annoyed with me. He was really cross that I was questioning his view and I did shout back!

At one point I said "You wouldnt be saying that if it was me or mum or "dsis" or "my dd"" and he said that that would be different as we wouldnt make something like that up, which is when I went a bit......loud

[2minsofyourtime]

Yanbu. Attitudes like your dads need to be challenged, and hopefully your dad will give it a little thought, whilst I'm sure he won't change his mind over night it might give him food for thought.

Fwiw my mum would be exactly the same and try and sweep it under the carpet and discourage me from 'winding up' my dad.

Maybe next time have some rape statistics to hand

[lljkk]

I don't like the 'I believe you' campaign.

[Burke1]

Can I just ask what I Believe You you is and if possible a link so I can read about it a bit more before I make a comment on this?

[SardineQueen]

So, the campaign came about because a lot of women on MN have been sexually abused as children and when they told they were not believed, and a lot of women have been sexually abused / assaulted as adults and when they told they were not believed / not taken seriously.

At the same time & in the news stories around children reporting abuse to police & being disbelieved / turned away and ditto with women who had been raped.

The campaign came about therefore because in society including authorities like police, also parents, friends, family etc so many people had told of sexual violence and been told (long story short) I don't believe you, so I'm not going to do anything about it. And on MN we said, no, We Believe You. If you tell us here that you were abused as a child, we believe you.

So you will see when on MN people tell a story of something that was done to them, many people will say "I believe you" and it is often the case that people haven't reported because they were scared of not being believed, or they told someone and weren't believed.

So it was an idea around this forum being "safe" for people who wanted to talk about stuff.

The fact that so many people are disbelieved in real life is a big problem and so it's a counter to that as well but of course some women saying I believe you on a website doesn't stop the police turning people away for eg or society saying well you were asking for it weren't you etc.

[SardineQueen]

here's a link to where it's at now the bit i gave was background about where it came from in the first place.

I've not read it recently should probably do that

[AcrossthePond55]

Regardless of how things stand between you and your dad, you were standing up for every person who has been sexually assaulted. Everyone has a right to have their accusation taken seriously, and to let the police and the courts do their work to prove or disprove that accusation. That's not the same thing as saying the accused is automatically guilty.

Attitudes like your dad's are the reason so many victims remain silent.

[Bogeyface]

A rape case that has got as far as court is not 'six of one and half a dozen of the other'. It means the cps have credible evidence and think they have a greater than 50% likelihood of conviction. It's pretty rare for genuine rape cases to even get that far, and disbelieving victims is a major problem that contributes to that.

Thank you. Thats what I said to Mum and a short version of what I ended up yelling at my Dad! I got all sarcastic and snotty and said "Oh yes!! The CPS are really going to waste all that money taking him to court on the basis of a false accusations and no proof arent they?!" Tbh, today showed me why my mother has been known to throw things at him.....

I know that he is pissed off with me, and I know that mum thinks that a certain type of woman is "asking for it". I wont let this go, and I wont STFU about it.

[Aridane]

Statistically, 98% of rape allegations are true

How doe we know this?

Asking out of curiosity, not asking aggressively!

[Aridane]

Thanks, House. Though having had the quicket of looks at the CPS Report, it's actually looking at the the number of false complaints where the CPS actually brought prosecutions against the complainant. Had thought the earlier poster was saying that out of every 100 women that allegage rape, 98 women we spreaking the truth.

Even so, looks an interesting report. Will look at it properly later.