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to be vvv scared of TTIP? (NHS, gm foods, banking, privacy)

66 replies

marryj · 07/12/2014 14:44

I've only just heard about this, sounds pretty terrifying to me

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html
Have you heard about TTIP? If your answer is no, don’t get too worried; you’re not meant to have.
The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership is a series of trade negotiations being carried out mostly in secret between the EU and US. As a bi-lateral trade agreement, TTIP is about reducing the regulatory barriers to trade for big business, things like food safety law, environmental legislation, banking regulations and the sovereign powers of individual nations. It is, as John Hilary, Executive Director of campaign group War on Want, said: “An assault on European and US societies by transnational corporations.”
Since before TTIP negotiations began last February, the process has been secretive and undemocratic. This secrecy is on-going, with nearly all information on negotiations coming from leaked documents and Freedom of Information requests.

But worryingly, the covert nature of the talks may well be the least of our problems. Here are six other reasons why we should be scared of TTIP, very scared indeed:
1 The NHS
Public services, especially the NHS, are in the firing line. One of the main aims of TTIP is to open up Europe’s public health, education and water services to US companies. This could essentially mean the privatisation of the NHS.
The European Commission has claimed that public services will be kept out of TTIP. However, according to the Huffington Post, the UK Trade Minister Lord Livingston has admitted that talks about the NHS were still on the table.
2 Food and environmental safety
TTIP’s ‘regulatory convergence’ agenda will seek to bring EU standards on food safety and the environment closer to those of the US. But US regulations are much less strict, with 70 per cent of all processed foods sold in US supermarkets now containing genetically modified ingredients. By contrast, the EU allows virtually no GM foods. The US also has far laxer restrictions on the use of pesticides. It also uses growth hormones in its beef which are restricted in Europe due to links to cancer. US farmers have tried to have these restrictions lifted repeatedly in the past through the World Trade Organisation and it is likely that they will use TTIP to do so again.
The same goes for the environment, where the EU’s REACH regulations are far tougher on potentially toxic substances. In Europe a company has to prove a substance is safe before it can be used; in the US the opposite is true: any substance can be used until it is proven unsafe. As an example, the EU currently bans 1,200 substances from use in cosmetics; the US just 12.
3 Banking regulations
TTIP cuts both ways. The UK, under the influence of the all-powerful City of London, is thought to be seeking a loosening of US banking regulations. America’s financial rules are tougher than ours. They were put into place after the financial crisis to directly curb the powers of bankers and avoid a similar crisis happening again. TTIP, it is feared, will remove those restrictions, effectively handing all those powers back to the bankers.
4 Privacy
Remember ACTA (the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement)? It was thrown out by a massive majority in the European Parliament in 2012 after a huge public backlash against what was rightly seen as an attack on individual privacy where internet service providers would be required to monitor people’s online activity. Well, it’s feared that TTIP could be bringing back ACTA’s central elements, proving that if the democratic approach doesn’t work, there’s always the back door. An easing of data privacy laws and a restriction of public access to pharmaceutical companies’ clinical trials are also thought to be on the cards.
5 Jobs
The EU has admitted that TTIP will probably cause unemployment as jobs switch to the US, where labour standards and trade union rights are lower. It has even advised EU members to draw on European support funds to compensate for the expected unemployment.
Examples from other similar bi-lateral trade agreements around the world support the case for job losses. The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) between the US, Canada and Mexico caused the loss of one million US jobs over 12 years, instead of the hundreds of thousands of extra that were promised.
6 Democracy
TTIP’s biggest threat to society is its inherent assault on democracy. One of the main aims of TTIP is the introduction of Investor-State Dispute Settlements (ISDS), which allow companies to sue governments if those governments’ policies cause a loss of profits. In effect it means unelected transnational corporations can dictate the policies of democratically elected governments.
ISDSs are already in place in other bi-lateral trade agreements around the world and have led to such injustices as in Germany where Swedish energy company Vattenfall is suing the German government for billions of dollars over its decision to phase out nuclear power plants in the wake of the Fukushima disaster in Japan. Here we see a public health policy put into place by a democratically elected government being threatened by an energy giant because of a potential loss of profit. Nothing could be more cynically anti-democratic.
There are around 500 similar cases of businesses versus nations going on around the world at the moment and they are all taking place before ‘arbitration tribunals’ made up of corporate lawyers appointed on an ad hoc basis, which according to War on Want’s John Hilary, are “little more than kangaroo courts” with “a vested interest in ruling in favour of business.”

So I don’t know about you, but I’m scared. I would vote against TTIP, except… hang on a minute… I can’t. Like you, I have no say whatsoever in whether TTIP goes through or not. All I can do is tell as many people about it as possible, as I hope, will you. We may be forced to accept an attack on democracy but we can at least fight against the conspiracy of silence.

OP posts:
OTheHugeManatee · 09/12/2014 17:21

Law-making in the EU is every bit as democratic as law-making in the UK, if not more so.

Under the Parliamentary system, both Parliament and the Government are elected, and can be removed by the will of the people. In the EU, the Commission is not elected by voters at all, but appointed by god knows what kind of cronyism. Only the (unelected) Commission proposes and drafts laws, and MEPs' job is just to ratify those laws. Some days the laws are so byzantine and numerous that they are waved through with barely a murmur.

Any UK Government can repeal laws passed by a previous Parliament. But once EU laws are adopted they can't be removed from the acquis communautaire. So whereas hated systems in the UK can be changed by a new government (see for example Labour pledging to end the bedroom tax), this doesn't and in fact can't happen in the EU.

The EU is not a democratic body.

WetAugust · 09/12/2014 17:30

Law-making in the EU is every bit as democratic as law-making in the UK, if not more so.

Absolute rubbish!

OhTheHugeManatee

You are absolutely correct to say that the the EU is undemocratic.

How anybody can justify the democratic deficit that exosts in the EU is quite beyond me.

But the problem is that very few people are actually interested in the goings on of the EU as they think it doesn't persinally affect them (wrong).

Its only when the EU starts to impinge on those things thatordinary folk hold dear do they wake up and start to taje notiuce,

Of course they will be told its all scare-mongering (wrong).

If you value something you don't take riskes with it. What we are told by politicians and what happens in reality are 2 very different things.

It would be a crime to let the NHS be destroyed because it didn;t fit into some EU bureaucrats template of how all countries should manage their health servive.

QueenoftheRant · 09/12/2014 17:33

Tobyjugg, you will note that Australia has withdrawn from their isds with the us because they were sick of the power the us had and used to meddle in internal affairs. The tobacco law case is interesting, as the tobacco industry were suing against laws restrictin advertising, so in support of human health - exactly what we don't want to see and will see more of under ttip.

Exactly why do you think EU needs UK more than we need them? The economy? Again I have little knowledge of macro economics but I have been proved right before (I said credit crunch or something was coming), and my opnion is that the UK economy is not as strong as it seems and the 'recovery' is built on smoke and mirrors, specifically massive over-exploitation of the poor. that source of revenue will dry up. In my favour are the facts that despite the apparent economic growth the tax revenue has not increased, proving that the apparent growth in jobs is a sham, mostly they are these low paid and zero-hr contracts. Also despite the repeated claims of eurozone weakness I note that the euro-pound exchange rate is holding steady.

There are fundamental weaknesses in uk - no real jobs, no real wealth creation, just housing and debt bubbles. I predict it will all end in tears again and soon! Coincidentally they are starting to warn that growth won't be so rosy in future aren't they?

Meanwhile all the laws protecting social and workers rights are coming out of Brussels, not London - London would overturn them all in a trice if it could and go back to that 'wonderful' Victorian period they've always harped on about. Wonderful for an elite few only, are you one of those few do you think?

We'll have to agree to disagree over UK/ US relations without EU I guess. I say at 65 million population for us, we'll only ever be their poodle - free to address our own problems when they can't be arsed as long as we jump when rhey say. By contrast that population makes us 3rd soon to be 2nd largest state in EU and probably 2nd largest economy so far.

We all know the EU has problems, but don't throw out the baby with the bath water, for all our sakes.

PausingFlatly · 09/12/2014 17:39

The Philip Morris vs Australia suit is a perfect example of what people are afraid of with TIPP.

Australia has made a sovereign decision to bring in a public health measure for the benefit of its citizens.

The measure is being implemented equally, on all tobacco companies. Philip Morris is taking legal action, claiming this will harm their investment in selling tobacco in Australia.

If it's "scaremongering of the worst type" to tell people about this, then I shall scaremonger away.

PausingFlatly · 09/12/2014 17:41

Here's the Australian Attorney-General's website on the case:

On 1 December 2011, the Tobacco Plain Packaging Act 2011 (the Act) received Royal Assent and became law in Australia.

The Act forms part of a comprehensive range of tobacco control measures to reduce the rate of smoking in Australia and is an investment in the long term health of Australians. Smoking is one of the leading causes of preventable death and disease in Australia.

Tobacco plain packaging is a legitimate public health measure which is based on a broad range of peer reviewed studies and reports, and supported by leading Australian and international public health experts. Further information regarding the implementation of tobacco plain packaging is available on the Department of Health's website.

Philip Morris Asia is challenging the tobacco plain packaging legislation under the 1993 Agreement between the Government of Australia and the Government of Hong Kong for the Promotion and Protection of Investments (Hong Kong Agreement). This is the first investor-state dispute that has been brought against Australia.

Philip Morris Asia is arguing that Australia's tobacco plain packaging measure constitutes an expropriation of its Australian investments in breach of Article 6 of the Hong Kong Agreement. Philip Morris Asia further argues that Australia's tobacco plain packaging measure is in breach of its commitment under Article 2(2) of the Hong Kong Agreement to accord fair and equitable treatment to Philip Morris Asia's investments. Philip Morris Asia further asserts that tobacco plain packaging constitutes an unreasonable and discriminatory measure and that Philip Morris Asia's investments have been deprived of full protection and security in breach of Article 2(2) of the Hong Kong Agreement. Australia rejects these claims.

PausingFlatly · 09/12/2014 17:43

Why in the name of fuck is Australia being forced to spend money defending this?

That's before we consider that they might lose the case...

WetAugust · 09/12/2014 17:49

Why in the name of fuck is Australia being forced to spend money defending this?

Exactly

Coming to a court room near you , an expense defence of the foundations of the NHS. Money that could be better spent on public services will go to line the pockets of corporate lawyers. they will have a field day.

It's a pretty lame excuse to say that we need to stay in the EU to protect workers rights.

We actually did quite a good of social progress before the EU, repeal of the Corn Laws, Factories Acts, Education Acts, establishment of the NHS, clearnace of slums.........

All pre EU.

What the EU is doing is creating slums in some of our cities where recent arrivals are camped out in underground tunnels, in parks and crammed a dozen at a time into small houses.

But hey - that's social progress EU style!

Legionofboom · 09/12/2014 17:53

We all know the EU has problems, but don't throw out the baby with the bath water, for all our sakes.

Totally agree with this Queen.

WetAugust · 09/12/2014 18:14

The 'baby' is actually a very expensive leech that is sucking this country dry.

And I am very pleased that sensible people are starting to wake up to that fact.

QueenoftheRant · 09/12/2014 18:58

"
We actually did quite a good of social progress before the EU, repeal of the Corn Laws, Factories Acts, Education Acts, establishment of the NHS, clearnace of slums.........
"

That was all a long time ago: have you not noticed the recent trends (ie from 80's onwards) slowly and steadily destroying the public sector? That's not coming from the EU but from our own politicians with their neo-liberal private-sector-beats-all ideology. The EU countries generally, or at least north eu, are holding out against that trend much better.

How is the EU creating slums, it ain't the EU that abolished social housing in the UK. I'd argue against blaming the immigrants for all of Uk's problems. But I'm off thread now so will stop.

Mollymoofer · 09/12/2014 20:41

Interesting thread here, thanks all. I'm also very afraid of TTIP but it's interesting to read the other side. As well as the Australian case, wasn't there an instance of a South American country being held to ransom in a similar way? The government couldn't afford the legal fees and had to capitulate. Can anyone fill me in?

DontPushTheButton · 09/12/2014 21:17

Marking place to read through later as I am at work.

QueenoftheRant · 10/12/2014 08:26

It was Argentina. This is something about it , just by googling it. I did come across that somewhere else which explained reasons better, will look... en.mercopress.com/2013/10/19/argentina-pays-500m-dollars-and-settles-pending-disputes-with-private-companies

This and similar cases raises the big question we should all have been asking ourselves a long time ago - who do we want in charge of our affairs, private multinational conglomerates or democracies. 'Cos at the moment it's multinationals, usually US, pushed through organisations such as the WTO and GATS agreements. Perhaps Cinnabar is right and TTIP will have no further effect on top (except for th acknowledged environmental problem). Maybe.

Why are we never encouraged to ask these questions - this is the sort of traning we really should be getting from schools, media, everything what kind of world do we want to live in. No accident that media and libraries, the bastions of free access to information, have been destroyed at this time. Or is it simple incompetence?

QueenoftheRant · 10/12/2014 08:31

Got it. That War on Want booklet which I linked earlier said that it was due to "the country's decision to unpeg its currency from the US dollar in 2002." p. 31. I'm not competent to comment further on that!

Kitkatatonia · 12/04/2015 11:44

Sorry, haven't had time to read the full thread but I caught this programme on radio 4 a couple of weeks ago and it was very interesting

company vs country

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