To be so angry and sad at the running down of public libraries?

[Squarepegina]

We are to be replaced with "integrated facilities" which means squashing assorted unrelated services into one place but having only one member of staff to man all the services. Result...demand for benefit sector takes all the available staff time and library service becomes a thing of the past.
I know that in lots of places libraries have closed altogether, but this is just a back door way of doing the same.
We provide family history help, information for children and homework club, run craft classes, provide local history help, public IT access, book group, as well as knowing and engaging with vulnerable and elderly people.
In one fell swoop our community will lose these services, it's so sad for future generations to not have this social public access point for information.

marianne Yes you can share and own ebooks if you just google. It is as easy as watching us netflix. I have de-drmed all my kindle and iBooks because I am appalled at how amazon can revoke and take away your entire kindle book collection if they want to.

But ofc that's a different issue from libraries.

Well it's easier with kindle books then iTunes. With iTunes you need an older version so it's only doable if you aren't using iTunes otherwise. Or you install it on a different PC like your work one.

OneLittleToddler: "blueshoes when I used to use libraries, you log onto a an online catalogue and reserve books anywhere in the system. They can be sent to your local ones for quite a cheap price. I'm sure they still do that."

That is exactly what the library told me. The joy of a well-stocked library is that you just go there once and you thumb through rows and rows of books of a decent selection that you have never even heard of prior and choose the ones you'd like to read. How am I supposed to know what I want to order just from the title? And then have to come back on another day to collect it? Honestly, I don't have the time or inclination.

My behaviour mirrors how people browse on Amazon where they click into what they think is interesting, see/read what it is about and quickly move on to the next if not. I am not looking for a reference book or text. It is just the joy of reading and finding a book I want to read.

A poorly stocked community library is not a library IMO. There are surestart centres for baby and toddler activities etc.

I think criticising a community library for being poorly stocked overlooks some important points. As other community centres have closed, a library does become a community meeting space. This is good in that say, a parent and baby group won't just use the library for social purposes. They'll borrow books too. Computer use has become an important way in which the library services the community - but space has to be found for PCs. When councils decide whether or not to keep libraries open they look at 'footfall'. So libraries will naturally look at which stock particularly attracts readers. They'll order bestsellers and genre fiction and only order more 'niche' stuff if funds allow. (Mostly they don't. Book funds get cut, but it's often possible to reserve a title from another library within the same authority.) Librarians and library assistants have a good knowledge of the book stock. If you say, 'I enjoyed author A but have read all her books,' they can say, 'You might like author B.'

As with a lot of services, a great deal depends on knowing how to use it in order to get the best out of it.

Another library worker here. It looks like we are going to have the local one stop shop joining us even though we have no space and we will have staff cuts.
Too many people see libraries as just about books and think that paper books are no longer needed now that we have the internet. Access to free books is still so important to many but also if books are being replaced to an extent by the internet then libraries become even more important as a place for internet access for anyone. Without libraries those that can't afford computers are at a huge disadvantage, there are also those that don't feel confident using the internet who rely on the help of library staff. I have been working in the same library for nearly 10 years and have seen opening hours reducing and staff levels dropping in that time, while we are expected to do more (ie helping job seekers as job centres close and every thing needs to be done online).
Sadly I fear that the value of libraries will only be realized when they have gone.

I'm a library assistant and I love seeing all these pro-library posts :)

I am very very lucky that my library (huge central one) is going from strength to strength but my mum, who runs a small library in my hometown, is having her hours permanently halved this month :(

It's definitely not just about the books anymore and I think that's great. We are a hub for a huge amount of community services like various groups for job seeking (this brings a lot of footfall), health checks, book groups including one specifically for visually impaired customers, partnership with the local college and schemes for their students with LDs, sensory Storytime for severely disabled children, Access to Research scheme, space used for various charity/community groups, blue badge help, space for concerts etc as well as the obvious computer access, baby rhyme and homework clubs.

And of course we are often the only people some elderly or vulnerable people will speak to all day. Even to those who can only come in every three weeks, we are a hugely important part of their lives, and that's pretty special to me. We also recently all had some training in dementia awareness for example because many customers suffer from it but it is so important to them to keep visiting us and maintaining normality.

That probably all sounded really patronising but it wasn't intended as such.

Anyway, I love working in the library but I do partly think that's because my library is 'safe' and I'm not constantly in fear for my job :( it would have such a shadow over me if not. I did consider training to be an actual librarian, but I'm not sure I'd be guaranteed a job at the end of it all really, it seems there's less qualified posts every year.

Why is it that the well stocked central libraries are doing well but the poorly stocked community library is not, even though both offer extra community frills like P&T groups and computers?

It could be that there is a connection?

All the major supermarkets now offer services other than just pure groceries, like DVDs, financial services, pharmacies. If they weren't good in their core service which is groceries, nobody is going to that supermarket just to open a bank account.

There is a lesson for libraries here as well. Focus on the core service i.e. books and the rest will follow. It is poor branding to call yourself a library if what the service seeks to be is a community centre. It disappoints the booklovers and is not attractive enough for other users to go there for a subsidiary service. There must be something so outstanding (books maybe?) that attracts people there to create the buzz and then other activities will ride on those coattails.

Or call them a community centre with good community services.

The problem is that local libraries are not particularly good at either.

My local library is brilliant. It is part of a municipal building and shares space with our theatre and various council offices. It is open 7 days a week and only closes on public holidays. The librarians are very helpful and it always seems to be busy.

DS has participated in the summer reading challenge for the last two years and DD2 was a volunteer helper for this summer's challenge. I can't fault it.

The argument is not to close all local libraries but close many of the disparate local libraries to consolidate the limited funds into providing for a few good central libraries with good transport links and facilities.

I think it is crying shame that the UK, the country which has a long history and wealth of literature, does not have enough of the central libraries that I grew up with in Singapore, a country which does not even have that much of a reading culture.

The British Library does not allow people to borrow books out. Again, we are forced to order and go through our local libraries. What a palaver and this is London.

I think there are strong arguments against running down community libraries in favour of a big central library. This is what is happening around the city where I live. There is no doubt that the rebuilt library has attracted a lot of publicity and visitors. It has many PCs for people to use and some attractive meeting spaces. However in terms of staffing, they're wanting a 'flexible' workforce to help 'manage the customer experience.' It's actually very hard to find anyone to help you and most of the skilled staff left during the period of the rebuild. Our council also spent all the money on the shiny building, so the books inside look something of an afterthought. Stock has either been wrongly shelved by security staff or is inaccessible in the stacks. (It was presumably these staff who shelved an 18 certificate DVD called 'Run Bitch Run' in the children's section. Many borrowers have returned to using community library where there is a better, more consistent service.

Big centralised libraries work well for a) commuters and b)people who can afford to go into the city centre. In my city a return bus fare for an adult is £4 and city centre parking for over an hour would cost the same amount. The library is not conveniently situated for many bus users, who would have to walk about 15 minutes across the centre of town to get there. Essentially for people who are elderly and/or have mobility problems, who are hard up and/or on benefits, or who may be trying to get toddlers and small children to the library will find it difficult to access libraries. People who are vulnerable and or lonely and/or who have special needs of some kind may also find it a lot easier to access local libraries where there's a smaller staff group who will have a better understanding of their needs.

But very few people, old or young are using local libraries. Which is why it is so politically easy to get rid of them.

A local community/library meeting point sounds sensible in principle but where are the people. I would have thought that is the issue. It is not working.

I'm not sure about the stats nationally - I think there is a decline in book borrowing, but this is partly linked to factors such as cuts in opening hours and/or reductions to the funds available for new books. (If stock is limited and tatty, then borrowing will fall.)

But any advocates for library use will tell you that libraries aren't just about book borrowing. They're about enabling communities to access the information that they need.

My own local library is very very busy, and emphatically is working. Local schools visit. Jobseekers use it. Reading groups borrow from the library. There are pre-school story sessions and well-supported holiday time activities for older children. Many children enlisted in the Summer Reading Challenge. The library has hosted courses to help older adults with computer literacy. Etc Etc...

In places where money is invested in libraries, book borrowing has not went down. My local library is so well used they have increased the opening hours. I remember visiting a local library when I lived in North London. I am an avid reader and the small selection of books there was so appalling I found it hard to find anything I want to read.

If you let a library run down and have a poor selection of books with very few new books being bought, it is hardly surprising borrowing will go down.

YANBU. Sadly, many people view libraries as things that belong in the past, and this is why they are easy targets. There is no easy answer to this and the attitude that libraries are not relevant are endemic. Librarians' skills are less likely to be recognised as contributing positively to the information age in which we live when really they should be at the forefront of facilitating access to information, in whatever form that might be, and for whatever reason.

The BL not lending material is a strange example to use but I see what you are getting at.

Libraries like everything else have to move with the times.

Librarians are less relevant because so much is online now and searchable. Librarians seem to be most comfortable with hierarchical taxonomies and browsing. The general public is comfortable and more used to googling and searching.

People access content online. Kindle and eBooks are replacing physical books.

People expect a much more immediate experience than a poorly stocked local library (whilst conveniently located) can supply. The only library I can see which rivals the central libraries I am used to is the British Library. But because the public cannot access the books directly but only secondarily through their local libraries, that is a big fail in my eyes.

It truly makes for quite a poor user experience.

Perhaps blueshoes you'd like to tell us specifically about which community libraries you have visited and what you've tried to do there.

I am not quite clear about the distinctions you're making between browsing/Googling and searching, and would also welcome an example of how a librarian demonstrates the comfort they find in a 'hierarchical taxonomy.'

As someone who works in a community library, regularly visits a large central library and sometimes uses academic libraries, my strong sense is that all these types of library have changed and adapted hugely over the last few decades. (Though I am certainly prepared to accept that some badly underfunded community libraries may not provide quite the same kinds of services as a well endowed centre of international research.)

It's rubbish to say that libraries are not being used. My own local library is / was the busiest in the area per population/ access head, yet it's still downsized. It showed a growth in borrowing, a growth in footfall and agrowth in enquiry and local access use, yet it's still downsized. Whereas the Cambridge central library, which is marvellous already, has more and more money poured in. Lovely, if you can get to it. But i'm in that county, and I have a 2 hour bus ride to that central library. And it costs, and it takes 2 hours, every 3 hours.

Still, that's where the votes are, eh?

Tory councils: doing everything they ever wanted to, since the 1980's, if you live in Fenland, Cambridgeshire or anywhere else rural where the voting is just shite. UKIP or Tory, Madam?

MarianneSoLong, I wanted to browse the shelves of a library to find interesting fiction to read and then borrow it out on the same day.

This is the same as going on Amazon and browsing for interesting titles but doing it in the physical way in a library.

The community library (and I visited 3 in my area) looked like a second book shop in terms of the random selection of children's books and paperbacks. All the libraries had hardly anyone in them.

I would have been prepared to travel to a larger library but the librarian was not able to advise. Perhaps you can advise where in London (and I am prepared to travel a reasonable distance) I can find a library where I browse a wide selection of fiction on the shelves of popular and less popular books and borrow them out on the same day.

One of the greatest joys of my childhood was going to such a central library and spending hours on a weekend doing just taking books one by one out of the shelves and keeping those I wanted to borrow and going back the next weekend and returning those books and borrowing more.

That's interesting blueshoes - though it raises plenty more questions.

I am wondering whether you have not always lived in the UK. (Your English is slightly idiosyncratic.) If so this might explain my impression that you may have less than complete understanding of this history of the UK public library service, and the way that it is currently meant to function.

A public library is not intended to provide direct competition with a commercial online store such as Amazon, or to replicate it in a physical form. Although many libraries stock DVDS and music, they're not entertainment venues whose sole aim is to provide 'an immediate experience.'

In the city where I live even small libraries with a run-down book stock will provide a range of popular fiction, including some newer titles - as well as less recent one. Any member of staff, even if they are temporary or supply staff, should be able to a) consult the library catalogue and assist you in finding suitable books in the library where their working and b) answer basic questions about other libraries in the vicinity.

I daresay Mumsnetters who live in London will be able to describe the situation in the particular boroughs where they live. I'd be interested to hear from them.

I live in London, am a member of seven borough library services and the libraries are generally excellent, with lots of events and activities going on. I visit them about five times a week and I was in two today, one in the Westminster borough and one in Islington, both were well-stocked and busy, particularly the Islington one. I can loan a book a book a few days after it's published if I'm quick enough with a reservation.

I feel very fortunate that libraries here are so good compared with some others around the country.

blueshoes I don't know where you live exactly so I'll recommend a central library - the Victoria one, over the road from the coach station.

Thanks Southeast, I live in SE London so the Victoria one will work well for me.

MarianneLong, I said earlier on in the thread that I grew up in Singapore. That must be where my idiosyncratic English, which seems to work in the City of London, comes from. Are you a pedant, perchance?

I am not sure why I need to understand the history of the UK public library service. I am only interested in a model that works. Amazon works, the local library does not. Is it possible you are too steeped in the culture of the UK library system that leads you to defend it but slightly blinds you to possible alternatives that threaten the status quo?

Well you've mentioned several unnamed libraries in London that in your opinion 'don't work.' Southeastdweller, who appears to use many libraries in London, feels - in marked contrast to your personal experience - that the libraries she knows work very well. She has recommended a library which can be reached reasonably easily from the City area. Perhaps you might like to try that and then report on your experiences?

My own personal experiences and that of my immediate family is that public libraries are invaluable. My daughter has obtained many books from the city libraries that support her A-level studies. It was through the library that my husband found out about many activities which are making his retirement productive and interesting. My husband and I run a small business and we found out about advice for business start-ups via our library. I access an extraordinarily wide range of fiction via the reservations system and most books arrive within a few days. Like any service it may not always function at optimal level, but in general I regard public libraries as a benchmark of a civilised society.

I buy books at 'real' shops or online. I'll also use university libraries occasionally, but the resource that is most central to my well-being and happiness is the public library service.

No doubt other people will contribute to the thread, and I'll look forward to their contributions.