To be so angry and sad at the running down of public libraries?

[Squarepegina]

We are to be replaced with "integrated facilities" which means squashing assorted unrelated services into one place but having only one member of staff to man all the services. Result...demand for benefit sector takes all the available staff time and library service becomes a thing of the past.
I know that in lots of places libraries have closed altogether, but this is just a back door way of doing the same.
We provide family history help, information for children and homework club, run craft classes, provide local history help, public IT access, book group, as well as knowing and engaging with vulnerable and elderly people.
In one fell swoop our community will lose these services, it's so sad for future generations to not have this social public access point for information.

[MarianneSolong]

I think one of the many things libraries do is provide an access point for those who would otherwise miss out because information and communication are changing so rapidly.

Today a man who'd be under 70 came in asking if we had telephone directories for Wales. I said no, but I'd check the catalogue to see if there were any in the city's main library. An initial search didn't turn up anything, but I asked if it was a business number he was after - as I might be able to find this via the internet. It turned out he wanted the number of an organisation in a small town there, that I could find easily via Googling.

There are a surprising amount of people who just don't do modern technology, and are becoming increasingly disempowered as a result. (I was called 'an angel' for locating the number.)

[Babycham1979]

It is incredibly sad that libraries are closing, but councils have no choice. Their central funding is being squeezed, while they have limits as to how much they can raise council tax by. When providing a portfolio of services that includes child protection, care of the elderly and (what remains of) education, they're faced with very tough choices.

For those that still don't understand the reality they face, I suggest having a go at Lewisham Council's Big Budget Simulator. It offers the dubious pleasure of trying to balance the Council's budget while preserving essential services. The same challenge is replicated across the Country. Do have a go, and post with your views as to exactly what should be done by councils.

I'm happy to pay higher income tax for better public services (and a reduced public debt). Are you?

[MarianneSolong]

Seconded!

[Southeastdweller]

There was nothing wrong with the old Birmingham central library and I'm appalled £189 million of taxpayers money was spent on the new one. I've been there a few times since it was rebuilt and I'm always shocked how much empty space is on the bookshelves and how few people I see browsing the shelves and taking out books.

[Permanentlyexhausted]

Urbane Google is to searching and accessing information what Primark is to quality clothing. If you want something that will 'suffice' and you don't care about the quality (or accuracy) then GIYF. If you do care about accuracy and quality rather than quantity, then you'll be needing a professional librarian.

Just giving every family broadband access won't replace a library service. Will you also pay for their ebook downloads? The hardware and software? The subscriptions to access ejournals and ebooks that are behind paywalls? Pay to digitize everything that isn't currently available in a digital format?

Your argument is the sort that is made by people who have no real concept of what a library actually does or provides.

Blueshoes There is no equality of access if no one turns up to access them. Erm - equality of access means that everyone should have an equal opportunity to access information, not that everyone has to use it! I find your attitude very defeatist - close down the libraries that are underfunded, rather than fight for more funding. Do you really want to travel halfway across London to find a well-stocked library? Wouldn't you rather that there was one just on your doorstep? And even if you don't mind, what about those in society who are most disadvantaged? Those who need the library more than most? They are the ones most likely to be unable to travel miles to the one remaining central library. All of which leads me back to my original point - that we cannot be a democracy if people cannot access information to make informed choices and that we risk making society a lot more dangerous and volatile by creating an underclass who have no chance of improving their lot.

[Fayrazzled]

Urbane- libraries are about so much more than internet access though. There's something important in a shared, community space to carry out these activities.

Probably visitor numbers are down for small, local libraries. That's because they've had their funding cut for years. People then complain the facilities are no good and people stop going. This gives politicians the evidence they have wanted all along to close the service. The same thing is happening with the NHS: under-investment leaves people complaining it's not for purpose, allowing the Government to justify privatizing the NHS and fulfilling their ideological goal of reduced state intervention overall. Depressing.

[Fayrazzled]

I think it's sad that people think physical books are on their way out. I appreciate that Kindle and other e-books make up a significant proportion of total book sales, (but total book sales have also increased since the inception of these devices- so more reading overall). Only in the past couple of weeks has there been research to show people understand a book they are reading better in a physical copy than in an e-book format; the reason being that holding the physical book in your hand helps you better place what you are reading in context (you know where you are in relation to the overall length of book) than with an e-book, where you might know the percentage read, or even the page number, but without feeling where you are. Interesting. I'd hate for all books and reading matter to be e-material.

I agree with those posters who consider a well-funded and managed library service to be a hallmark of a civilized society. The very fact these services are being downgraded indicates to me that our society is becoming more polarised. Yes, lucky you, if you can afford to buy all your family's books/newspapers/periodicals etc either online or in bricks-and-mortar shops. But not everyone is so fortunate. Libraries provided a place for everyone to be able to access information, literature, education, and entertainment. We'll be very much poorer without them.

[UrbaneLandlord]

Aren't libraries increasingly becoming an anachronism?

What I'd like to see are the visitor numbers - especially for smaller local libraries. I expect that, over the last 10 & 20 years, visitor numbers have been in terminal decline. That's why there's very little opposition to library closures,

What about scrapping all local libraries and using the money to give every household in the UK broadband internet access?

[Didiusfalco]

You're in Birmingham aren't you Marianne? I totally agree with your assessment of the central library. It seems like all the money went on the building and there was none left for any books. Having spoken to our local librarian before our community library closed it seems that Birmingham have lost about 1/3 of its library staff (whether through cut hours or head count) and there will be further reductions throughout the coming year. It's a slow decline, and I think those who still have community libraries are lucky to have them.

[Southeastdweller]

I forgot to mention the Peckham library which should be easy for you to get to blueshoes, if you don't live too far out in S.E. I've only been there twice but understand it's very popular. It's also one of the biggest libraries in the city. If you have the time after work then another library that I spend a lot of time in is the Barbican one, another huge library with up to date stock, very helpful staff, and a big children's section. It's open until 7.30 on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

My borough is Lambeth and most if not all staff have been replaced with people who aren't trained librarians, but what seems to me to be volunteers or customer service assistants, same with Camden. Self-scan hasn't come to Lambeth yet but all other libraries I go to in the city have it. Lambeth is the worst Borough for getting new items in but often it's hard to find a study space in my local library, the long opening hours haven't changed, and most computers are being used at any one time. I also see a lot of teachers or T.A's or volunteers helping kids with their reading and homework. This particular part of Lambeth has a lot of poverty and I can easily see that my local library is a lifeline for many.

[MarianneSolong]

I am rather perplexed blueshoes. Your picture of three as yet unnamed libraries is so very different from the one given by Southeastdweller. As a non-Londoner, who hasn't visited its public libraries for some years, I am interested in getting a fuller picture of the services there, to see how they've responded both to cuts and to the digital age. I've heard about some much praised libraries that have opened - in Peckham for example - and hope some of the many Mumsnetters who use libraries in the city will contribute. So far, it seems to me, the majority of contributors have said that they value community library services. I think this is fairly typical for a forum where most posters have young children, who are learning to read/to become more confident readers. Children tend to like being able to go to places in their immediate neighbourhood and parents value being able to take their children to places that are free to use.

The model where I live in which the local authority's libraries are networked works well. You can borrow from any library in the city and return your book to a different library. You can reserve books held at another city library without charge. This means, for example, that people who can't - or don't wish to - travel to the large city library can access its books.

[blueshoes]

There is no equality of access if no one turns up to access them. If funds are being cut and are by no means limitless, then combine 3 poor local libraries into a better run and stocked central one that will attract the footfall.

I don't believe in having a multiplicity of local libraries for "community" sake if there are no enough funds to ensure they provide a proper service and selection of books.

[Permanentlyexhausted]

Blueshoes I am all for central libraries that see a lot of footfall.

Do you really think that popularity is the only valid measurement of a public service?

Your desire to use public libraries may be limited to borrowing popular fiction, but the real value of them is in the equality of access to information they provide.

You sound disappointed in your local libraries - why are you happy to travel further instead of lobbying for a better service closer to home?

Would you feel the same about smaller local schools, healthcare facilities, etc? Should they be closed down in favour of bigger newer facilities?

[blueshoes]

Marianne: "Perhaps you might like to try that and then report on your experiences?"

"No doubt other people will contribute to the thread, and I'll look forward to their contributions."

I do enjoy your passive aggressive way of posting! We cannot all agree with you, I am afraid.

[blueshoes]

Marianne, I am all for central libraries that see a lot of footfall. I refuse to support local community libraries that are all but moribund.

The one at Victoria could very well be the holy grail I am looking for - my children are at an age where I would like them to have my experience at childhood which allowed me to develop a love of books.

[MarianneSolong]

Well you've mentioned several unnamed libraries in London that in your opinion 'don't work.' Southeastdweller, who appears to use many libraries in London, feels - in marked contrast to your personal experience - that the libraries she knows work very well. She has recommended a library which can be reached reasonably easily from the City area. Perhaps you might like to try that and then report on your experiences?

My own personal experiences and that of my immediate family is that public libraries are invaluable. My daughter has obtained many books from the city libraries that support her A-level studies. It was through the library that my husband found out about many activities which are making his retirement productive and interesting. My husband and I run a small business and we found out about advice for business start-ups via our library. I access an extraordinarily wide range of fiction via the reservations system and most books arrive within a few days. Like any service it may not always function at optimal level, but in general I regard public libraries as a benchmark of a civilised society.

I buy books at 'real' shops or online. I'll also use university libraries occasionally, but the resource that is most central to my well-being and happiness is the public library service.

No doubt other people will contribute to the thread, and I'll look forward to their contributions.

[blueshoes]

MarianneLong, I said earlier on in the thread that I grew up in Singapore. That must be where my idiosyncratic English, which seems to work in the City of London, comes from. Are you a pedant, perchance?

I am not sure why I need to understand the history of the UK public library service. I am only interested in a model that works. Amazon works, the local library does not. Is it possible you are too steeped in the culture of the UK library system that leads you to defend it but slightly blinds you to possible alternatives that threaten the status quo?

[blueshoes]

Thanks Southeast, I live in SE London so the Victoria one will work well for me.

[Southeastdweller]

I live in London, am a member of seven borough library services and the libraries are generally excellent, with lots of events and activities going on. I visit them about five times a week and I was in two today, one in the Westminster borough and one in Islington, both were well-stocked and busy, particularly the Islington one. I can loan a book a book a few days after it's published if I'm quick enough with a reservation.

I feel very fortunate that libraries here are so good compared with some others around the country.

blueshoes I don't know where you live exactly so I'll recommend a central library - the Victoria one, over the road from the coach station.

[MarianneSolong]

That's interesting blueshoes - though it raises plenty more questions.

I am wondering whether you have not always lived in the UK. (Your English is slightly idiosyncratic.) If so this might explain my impression that you may have less than complete understanding of this history of the UK public library service, and the way that it is currently meant to function.

A public library is not intended to provide direct competition with a commercial online store such as Amazon, or to replicate it in a physical form. Although many libraries stock DVDS and music, they're not entertainment venues whose sole aim is to provide 'an immediate experience.'

In the city where I live even small libraries with a run-down book stock will provide a range of popular fiction, including some newer titles - as well as less recent one. Any member of staff, even if they are temporary or supply staff, should be able to a) consult the library catalogue and assist you in finding suitable books in the library where their working and b) answer basic questions about other libraries in the vicinity.

I daresay Mumsnetters who live in London will be able to describe the situation in the particular boroughs where they live. I'd be interested to hear from them.

[blueshoes]

MarianneSoLong, I wanted to browse the shelves of a library to find interesting fiction to read and then borrow it out on the same day.

This is the same as going on Amazon and browsing for interesting titles but doing it in the physical way in a library.

The community library (and I visited 3 in my area) looked like a second book shop in terms of the random selection of children's books and paperbacks. All the libraries had hardly anyone in them.

I would have been prepared to travel to a larger library but the librarian was not able to advise. Perhaps you can advise where in London (and I am prepared to travel a reasonable distance) I can find a library where I browse a wide selection of fiction on the shelves of popular and less popular books and borrow them out on the same day.

One of the greatest joys of my childhood was going to such a central library and spending hours on a weekend doing just taking books one by one out of the shelves and keeping those I wanted to borrow and going back the next weekend and returning those books and borrowing more.

[phlebasconsidered]

It's rubbish to say that libraries are not being used. My own local library is / was the busiest in the area per population/ access head, yet it's still downsized. It showed a growth in borrowing, a growth in footfall and agrowth in enquiry and local access use, yet it's still downsized. Whereas the Cambridge central library, which is marvellous already, has more and more money poured in. Lovely, if you can get to it. But i'm in that county, and I have a 2 hour bus ride to that central library. And it costs, and it takes 2 hours, every 3 hours.

Still, that's where the votes are, eh?

Tory councils: doing everything they ever wanted to, since the 1980's, if you live in Fenland, Cambridgeshire or anywhere else rural where the voting is just shite. UKIP or Tory, Madam?

[MarianneSolong]

Perhaps blueshoes you'd like to tell us specifically about which community libraries you have visited and what you've tried to do there.

I am not quite clear about the distinctions you're making between browsing/Googling and searching, and would also welcome an example of how a librarian demonstrates the comfort they find in a 'hierarchical taxonomy.'

As someone who works in a community library, regularly visits a large central library and sometimes uses academic libraries, my strong sense is that all these types of library have changed and adapted hugely over the last few decades. (Though I am certainly prepared to accept that some badly underfunded community libraries may not provide quite the same kinds of services as a well endowed centre of international research.)

[blueshoes]

Libraries like everything else have to move with the times.

Librarians are less relevant because so much is online now and searchable. Librarians seem to be most comfortable with hierarchical taxonomies and browsing. The general public is comfortable and more used to googling and searching.

People access content online. Kindle and eBooks are replacing physical books.

People expect a much more immediate experience than a poorly stocked local library (whilst conveniently located) can supply. The only library I can see which rivals the central libraries I am used to is the British Library. But because the public cannot access the books directly but only secondarily through their local libraries, that is a big fail in my eyes.

It truly makes for quite a poor user experience.

[manchestermummy]

YANBU. Sadly, many people view libraries as things that belong in the past, and this is why they are easy targets. There is no easy answer to this and the attitude that libraries are not relevant are endemic. Librarians' skills are less likely to be recognised as contributing positively to the information age in which we live when really they should be at the forefront of facilitating access to information, in whatever form that might be, and for whatever reason.

The BL not lending material is a strange example to use but I see what you are getting at.