to think that 'mini-wife' is problematic for exactly the same reasons that 'jailbait' is problematic?

[ArsenicyOldFace]

In that it transfers responsibility from adult men onto female children?

Thankfully one doesn't hear the word 'jailbait' much any more; society has moved on and we now understand the process of grooming etc

[FlossyMoo]

I have just copied & pasted this from a site called café mom.

Usually involves a female child of divorce who has made to feel entitled to the sole attention and resources of her guilt-ridden father.

~ Made worse if the father has been single for a long period of time, during which the child became accustomed to the sole attention of her father.

~ Is inordinately affectionate with her father.

~ Has expectations that she will be the center of her father's attention or she will punish him by pouting, whining, or ignoring him.

~ New female in the father's life tends to feel "left out," "awkward," or "intrusive" when going out with the father and his mini-wife.

~ Mini-wife will try to compete with stepmother.

~ Mini-wife will feel less like his child and more like "the other woman" in the stepmother's mind.

~ Mini-wife will insist on sitting and walking next to her father at all times.

~ Mini-wife can become inordinately obsessed with her father, calling several times a day or becoming overly needy.

~ Mini-wife may insist on private dates with dad.

~ Mini-wife dwells on the past and wants to talk about times with her dad before her stepmother came into the relationship.

~Mini-wife tattles to her dad on her stepmother.

~Mini-wife tries to circumvent her stepmom's authority by going "over her head" to daddyyyy.

~Mini-wife tends to act and talk "babyish" when around her dad.

~Mini-wife blames everything bad in her life on her stepmother.




What I find sick and twisted is that there is only one reference to the father. The rest although descriptive of the child's behaviour comes across as very child blaming/hating to me.

[Softlysoftlycatchymonkey]

wakey I went to go live with my df so I missed a lot of it. My mother has got mental health issues. It's not really hard to talk about it now as me and my brother have spoken about this in great length as a lot of her behaviours effected us both. More so him than me as he got the brunt of it.

I remember her coming home from the pub pissed while I was visiting and making us both dance/smooch with her to wet wet wet version of "you are always on my mind' .

And yes to seeking approval of looks. Massively.

[Fairenuff]

Yes Flossy, that sort of negates the 'no one is to blame, it's a dynamic' explanation doesn't it. The child is clearly being blamed.

[HaroldLloyd]

I don't frequent any boards where this would be mentioned, but would hope that following the explanations and examples it was clearly pointed out that this behaviour is the fault of the inappropriate parenting by the adult?

Flossy that is awful, insisting on dates? Just horrible.

[PhaedraIsMyName]

wakey very interesting explanation but clearly it is the parent who is at fault, not the child.

[WakeyCakey45]

But flossy - MN isn't "cafe mom", it's Mumsnet.

[HaroldLloyd]

It's interesting to see how the term is interpreted elsewhere though.

[FlossyMoo]

I am fully aware of that Wake I was high lighting that it is not just a MN phenomenon and that the few threads I have seen on here describing MWS are mirrored elsewhere by other step mothers in a negative way.

[WakeyCakey45]

harold that may be dangerous territory - given that some other terms commonly used and accepted shorthand elsewhere on the internet are expressly forbidden on MN (by consensus, not board rules).

MN has it's own, unique culture. Quoting other forums as evidence that a particular term is used in a specific way will leave that MN culture vulnerable to challenge in the future.

[scallopsrgreat]

Such a misogynistic phrase. Vile.

[FlossyMoo]

Why shouldn't it be challenged Wakey?

[HaroldLloyd]

Yes it does, so it would make sense to not import a word that is used in this way elsewhere I would say.

I can't see any benefit from using a term like this even if for some reason MN views it differently from many other forums.

[plinth]

YANBU.

I've seen it used too often for comfort on MN, and almost exclusively by SMs to describe damaged and insecure children of ineffective parents.

Horrid.

[Fairenuff]

Wakey I've seen lots of posters link other web pages on threads, what's the problem? I've seen whole threads started with loads of links in them.

Perhaps MN culture should change if posters still think that term is acceptable in every day use.

[basgetti]

MN doesn't exist in a vacuum, so if people are going to say that 'miniwife' is a real, legitimate thing, or that the term itself is harmless shorthand, then other posters are entitled to show evidence where it's use is damaging and child blaming. People like Katie Lee Douglas are setting themselves up as so- called experts on this issue, writing books and giving advice whilst perpetuating hateful myths and seemingly encouraging and partaking in abuse. Why shouldn't they be challenged?

[FlossyMoo]

MN has it's own, unique culture. Quoting other forums as evidence that a particular term is used in a specific way will leave that MN culture vulnerable to challenge in the future.

The feminist board quotes various sexist information/terminology from other forums/web sits all the time to challenge language they feel is sexist and derogatory. I don't see what I did as any different.

The culture surrounding MWS is one of child blaming when in truth the child is the victim. I see that as something to be challenged and the culture changed.

[WakeyCakey45]

But that's always been the biggest point of contention in all the discussions about this term; there's never been a thread like the one on "cafe mom" that defines the term "mini wife".

There have been one or two comprehensive threads describing the therapeutic use of the term "spousification" and the related, but distinct term, "parentification" but even the deleted threads were never as prescriptive as cafe mom who seem to have comprehensively allocated a collection of behaviours to the label.

A phenomenon that is therapeutically defined by motive of the participants cannot be identified one way or another by their actions alone.

[LineRunner]

I agree it is a vile term. I also agree it is good to see this wider discussion away from the step-parenting board.

[Fairenuff]

But that's always been the biggest point of contention in all the discussions about this term; there's never been a thread like the one on "cafe mom" that defines the term "mini wife".

I have seen posters on mn use very similar phrases about their dsd's. Not all on one thread, but cropping up all over the place. There were two just this morning. One of them even used the actual term 'mini wife'.

I think, on the whole, the term 'spousification' is preferred if there is nothing else that currently fits the bill. But the blame culture is very much here on mn and that is what is being challenged.

[FlossyMoo]

The term spousification was not brought to my attention until a thread where the term mini wife was challenged.

There are a number of threads which do use the term mini wife and high light some of the things I described and also a couple of the points highlighted on the copy & pasted posted.

I will not high light the threads on here as it is bad form however if they have not being deleted I am happy to pm you the links Wakey

[YetAnotherHelenMumsnet]

Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrm.

[basgetti]

Wakey I've seen posts similar to the cafe mom comments on here. But regardless, the OP didn't specify use of the terms on MN. It made a general comment about how such terms seek to blame children for adult behaviours. What is wrong with someone providing a link that supports this argument? It is a perfectly normal thing to do on threads and relevant to the discussion.

[ClashCityRocker]

Yes, that's the objectionable thing. The phrase 'mini-wife' being used to describe the behaviours of an insecure or inadequately parented child.

And 'mini-wife syndrome' squarely puts the blame on the child.

It also minimises cases where spousification is actually taking place.

[WakeyCakey45]

faire as I said up thread the "blame" is attributed due to the childs motives; which (when spousification is at play) are to fulfil the emotional needs of their parent. That is the consequence of the abuse they have experienced.

By the time a stepparent becomes involved in a families life, the spousification dynamic is well established, so the child is observed initiating interactions in order to meet the emotional needs of the parent. The stepparent hasn't observed the way in which the dynamic has developed - when Dad was 'encouraging' his daughter to feel his muscles or stroke his forehead and was rewarding her for that - it has become a behaviour that the child engages in when she is seeking parental approval as it is proven to work.

Therefore, a relatively new stepparent, unaware of this recognised clinical phenomenon, will not know that it stems from abuse. She will describe her perception of the relationship between father and daughter. And get shouted down for victim blaming.

[ClashCityRocker]

We're being good, yetanotherhelenmumsnet.