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AIBU?

To be angry there is so little response to anti semitism and the rise of extremism in Europe?

151 replies

VampireSquid · 31/07/2014 13:11

A quick look at news sites shows an Athens holocaust memorial has been defaced, eight French synagogues attacked, shops have been burnt in a section of Paris with a large Jewish community, cars have been attacked. In Netherlands, there was an ISIS March, including chants of death to the Jews. In Germany, someone has been allegedly arrested for incitement, for yelling 'Heil Hitler'. A Dutch Jew had his house firebombed. In January, people were giving the Nazi salute en masse. A Belgian shop banned Jews from entering. French Jews are fleeing while they feel they still can. A Hungarian ambassador has publicly says Jews enslave mankind, and called them servants of Satan. Berlin has people chanting 'Jews, Jews, cowardly pigs!' and people have been heard, at pro Palestine demonstrations, chanting 'Jews to the gas chambers'.

How are people ignoring this?

OP posts:
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AmIIndecisive · 02/08/2014 00:22

I think you know exactly what I meant - People using the conflict in the Middle East to justify their real feelings of anti semitism.

I have friends who are frightened about bringing their children up here, it is shocking and something I never thought I would see in my generation having studied the atrocities in WW2 as purely historic. As a liberal Brit I am truly appalled and upset by a lot of what I am reading.

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SixImpossible · 02/08/2014 00:27

What naivety, prejudice and ignorance is being displayed on this thread. So Israel is the cause of anti-semitism? (Hmm, let me see, Clifford's Tower, Hitler, quite a few other instances occurring across Europe in between those eras, as well as before, the existence of Israel caused them, too?)

No, Israel is the excuse for anti-semitism.

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chibi · 02/08/2014 01:03

it is interesting that a poster links what israel does to jews in the diaspora- as though they can influence a foreign government, and thus are responsible for its actions.

closer to home, it is also interesting to note that one of the greatest contributors to the UK GDP is our lively arms trade. our government promotes, provides incentives for this industry which supplies the weapons which are possibly used to kill children in this conflict. they are certainly being used to kill children somewhere.

i wonder if the poster who holds diasporic jews responsible for israel would like to be held responsible for th UK government, its foreign policy, the UK arms trade.

if people are concerned about israel's actions, let them pressure their own governments and hold them responsible rather than terrorising people who share nothing more than an ethnicity with those they would condemn.

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Pinkrose1 · 02/08/2014 08:04

I am not anti Semitic. I hate what Israel is doing in Palestine.

This is the majority view held throughout the world.

You can try for however long you like to disengage what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza with a rise in anti semitism but it won't wash.
Anti semitism is wrong. Israel's actions are wrong.

You can play the holocaust card as much as you like, but like the race card, eventually people will have the courage to speak out. What Israel is doing to the Palestinians is their own kind of genocide. Two wrongs are making this whole shameful war a very unrighteousness thing to be doing.

God has very definitely left the building.

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heartisaspade · 02/08/2014 08:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Springheeled · 02/08/2014 08:59

Just melodramatic nonsense heartisaspade when you say that this thread shows how racist violence is normalised and promoted!

I've read this thread and what I have gleaned from it is:

No one on it condones antisemitism
No one on it condones violence
Many on it see the context of a rise in antisemetic attacks in Europe as being a) austerity leading to growth of far right groups and b) an ignorant way of dealing with anger about the state of Israel's disgusting treatment, violence against, and racism towards Palestinians
No one has said that context excuses violence or racism, merely that it explains it.

Seems like a well balanced and reasonable discussion to me? What am I missing?

And can I just point out that you can't have it both ways- posting about a rise in antisemitism (I've seen three threads) just as Israel begins to pulverise the Gaza Strip is wacky timing at best and an attempt to play the antisemitism card at worst. I've seen no one on mumsnet, ever, say that attacks on Jewish people, racist language or daubing swastikas etc is right- far from it. Plenty will say that what is happening now in Gaza is an outrage.

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AmIIndecisive · 02/08/2014 09:39

Vampire Squid et al logical folk. I think you can see from this thread that there are a shameful few, and not just on MN, that justify their brand of bigotry with what is going on.

When you try and explain why what the have said is wrong, they either don't listen or try and excuse it by making reference to Gaza.

These are the same few who eat up all of the propaganda, believe donating to free Gaza will buy the innocents help (and not fund a terrorist organisation that is condoned internationally and in parts of the middle east). These are people that think it is acceptable that a democracy should be allowed to be fired at and attacked and shouldn't respond, and blame that same democracy for investing in its own people and defences. This is because this is a democracy for Jews.

I feel awful for the residents of the Gaza Strip but anyone with any common sense should be able to see that their enemy is NOT Israel, it is the very people who they voted in/ the terrorists who are FORCING them to stay in the line of fire (I know this first hand from my best friend who is there) the Israelis warm them to leave, they go to leave and Hamas force them to stay, they do not value life and see honour in death.

I am sure I could go on with logic til I am blue in the face but many of you will refuse to see the truth and this brand of terror and the war they wage on the west and on democracy until I am sure it is too late.

In the meantime, I am not Jewish but I stand firmly with my Jewish friends and will defend their liberties in this Country as much as I can as whatever you say, none of the European Jews deserve to feel any different from any other Europeans.

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Springheeled · 02/08/2014 09:47

Regarding your last paragraph, I don't think anyone would disagree with you. And don't forget that if the far right parties in Europe gained more power that all of us would be at risk from them- that is, all of us who would stand with our Jewish, Muslim, Roma, friends, who opposed the ideology of hatred and fascism. That is why most right thinking people condemn anti semitism AND all forms of racial hatred equally.

And why a great number of people in the world now condemn the actions of the Israeli government: they are collectively punishing innocents and children just for being Palestinian.

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Pinkrose1 · 02/08/2014 10:40

The holocaust is the elephant in the room, but it is the reason Israel was born. I'm not afraid to mention it. I don't think I am alone in thinking the Jews after the war moving to Palestine did what was best for them. I think they needed a homeland after their experiences at the hands of the Nazis. They did however invade the land of another people. Even this I don't think was that terrible, it is a big land mass and there is room for both communities. They could have lived harmoniously side by side and the Jews could have brought wealth and stability to an otherwise backwards region.

Where it all went wrong is the war in 1947 when the Israelis grabbed the vast majority of the land and effectively created ghettos of the West Bank and Gaza. These are tiny areas in comparison to the rest of Israel and created resentment and radicalisation of the Palestinian citizens. This resentment has resulted in terrorist attacks provoking wars where they consistently come off worse. This cycle led to the election of Hamas, an organisation as lacking in humanity as the Israeli government. Hamas shows little care for its people. It does launch rockets from civilian areas and I think it is revelling in the world attention and regards casualties as collateral damage. BUT Hamas is a manifestation of the years of oppression.

Hitler rose to power because of harsh treatment of Germany after the First World War by the rest of the world. Oppressive treatment breeds extremism and this is Hamas. The Palestinians had a great leader who formed a truce with the Israeli leader. Both were assassinated. All this bloodshed and oppression left the way open to extremism.

To say the Palestinians should move out if the way as their homes are bombed Shock where to? The Red Sea? I don't think it's going to be parting anytime soon to provide a safe haven. And to suggest parents allow their children to be murdered for the sake of honour or Hamas? Give me a break!

To reiterate what spring has said. No one condones AS or violence against anyone. We are just trying to point out there is a logical reason for it arising now in the current climate. It needs to be stamped out where it occurs. I personally have never seen any and apart from Hasidic Jews I wouldn't even know someone was Jewish. I've worked a great doctor for years and only learned he was Jewish when he said he was celebrating Hanukkah. I have a friend in tel aviv. I wonder how common this AS really is to the majority of Jews in the UK?

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Backinthering · 02/08/2014 10:50

AmIIndecisive I'm afraid that foreign journalists have found no evidence of Hamas forcing any civilians into the line of fire.
They simply have nowhere to run, when even refugee centres get shelled.
Given that Hamas is currently engaging in a ground battle with IDF forces, I'd be quite surprised if they found the time to inforce Gazans movements as you suggest.

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OneStepCloser · 02/08/2014 10:52

pinkrose I do like your post, calm, fair and informative.

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AmIIndecisive · 02/08/2014 11:03

Pink Rose, Jews have lived in Israel / Palestine for 1000s of years, this is not a new thing that the Israelis suddenly decided it would be a nice place to live after WW2.

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Pinkrose1 · 02/08/2014 11:22

I know Jews have lived in the Middle East for thousands of years. They have lived in Europe from the time movement of people's into other countries began. They have lived everywhere in the world almost.

The problem began in 1947 with the vast influx following the Second World War. It was wanting to establish a country of their own (entirely understandable) which started the whole mess. Before then they had lived side by side with the Arabs. So yes, in terms of relativity (almost 70 years) it is a new thing.

Onestep. Thanks Smile

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halfdrunkcoffee · 02/08/2014 11:38

Pinkrose1 - I agree with the gist of what you are saying, but you have got some of the history slightly wrong. The War of Independence was in 1948, not 1947. Theodor Herzl really got Zionism going in the late 19th century in response to rising anti-Semitism in Europe, including the Dreyfus Affair. Anti-Semitism in Europe has existed about as long as there have been Jews in Europe. Jewish immigrants arrived in Palestine in large numbers both prior to and after WW2.

Although to a large extent Arabs and Jews did live side by side in Palestine, outbreaks of violence did occur, mainly in the years after the Balfour Declaration of 1918. There was also a lot of Arab opposition to rising Jewish immigration during the 1920s and 1930s. And many immigrants to Palestine weren't particularly into Zionism, but were fleeing persecution.

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ballsballsballs · 02/08/2014 11:56

I agree that recent events have given some people an excuse to be open about their anti-Semitism. It's disgusting.

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Pinkrose1 · 02/08/2014 12:48

Ok 1948 but the massive migration to Israel started in 1947 not just from Europe but from Arab States. Of course Jews lived in Palestine before then and throughout Europe and were subjected to anti semetism throughout history, but most communities lived peacefully.

AS is just a manifestation of the human condition. Different communities have always fought or resented each other. Always been divided on racial, religious or ethnic grounds. Catholic/Protestants. Muslim/Christian. Sunni/Shia. And so on right back to Homo sapiens and Neanderthals! Civilisation tempers these instincts but can't entirely suppress them, we just have to learn to live with one another.

What triggers these conflicts is the oppression of one community by another. Think Protestant and catholic and the rise of the IRA.

I think this is the root of the current wave of AS and as I've said before it's not fair on anyone, it's just a fact of life, but one that only the Israelis can reverse by giving the Palestinians a state and returning a reasonable proportion of land to them.

Of course that won't happen. Sad

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wafflyversatile · 02/08/2014 13:16

Important to remember that objecting to the Israeli state's actions and anti-semitism are not the same thing. Most people who object to the first are not anti-semitic, in fact many are jewish. And many who take part in anti-semitic attacks across europe don't give a shiny shite about palestine.

Let's not conflate the two any more than we should conflate the state of Israel and judaism.

So I don't think it's at the root of the current wave, but perhaps a catalyst for existing anti-semitism to get violent or to foster an increase.

I do agree with a lot of what you have said in your posts though, pink.

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TheTravellingLemon · 02/08/2014 13:28

Can I just point out that there was a 36 percent rise in anti semitism in the UK in the first half of this year. Before the current conflict started.

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TheTravellingLemon · 02/08/2014 13:30

Oh, and 'holocaust card'? Nice. Hmm

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wafflyversatile · 02/08/2014 13:37

Can I just point out that there was a 36 percent rise in anti semitism in the UK in the first half of this year. Before the current conflict started.

There you go then, perhaps about economic issues, which I said upthread. All sorts of prejudices increase during difficult economic times.

Perhaps what the current conflict has increased is reporting and threads about anti-semitic attacks to deflect from Israeli actions. Hmm

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TheTravellingLemon · 02/08/2014 14:09

I had promised myself that I wouldn't get dragged into another one of these threads, but here goes.

waffly I was not directing my post to you specifically, just making a general point.

What, out of interest, do you suppose the Jewish population in the coutry do about anti Semitic attacks? Not report them in case it takes attention away from the situation in the Middle East? Is that enough? Or should they not talk about them in public at all in case somebody overhears and for a second forgets how awful Israel is?

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wafflyversatile · 02/08/2014 14:15

I mean in the newspapers!

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Pinkrose1 · 02/08/2014 14:17

36% is an apparently huge rise in illegal and outrageous attacks on Jewish people and property.

BUT this figure is 304 in the first 6 months of this year compared to about 120 in the same time last year.

In a population of 63 million......well my meagre maths skills can't work out how infinitesimally small that is.

I and everybody on this thread has said even one AS attack is wrong and should be punished, but you have to accept that this country is amazingly open and welcome to all people and these incidents are rare.

It just goes to show how statistics can be manipulated to suit an argument though Hmm

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AmIIndecisive · 02/08/2014 14:29

Pink Rose, I think 184 additional anti semetic attacks in the last 6 months (according to your stats) is an awful lot and wouldn't call it meagre.

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TheTravellingLemon · 02/08/2014 14:36

There might be 63 million people in this country, but only around 300,000 Jews. That figure is far less if you look at practicing Jews. There will be whole swathes of this country with no antisemitism at all because there are no Jews there. So it's not really about 63 million. But you're right that numbers can be easily manipulated.

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