to be getting hot and bothered about the Vit D push?

[stinkingbishop]

I am prepared to be corrected but, having been hassled yet again by the HV about giving the twins Vit D because of the oft cited 'rise in Rickets', and saying, again, that they had a good diet, including oily fish, and play outside, and again being made to feel like I am stubborn/neglectful, I am getting rather worked up.

As I understand it, one of the main reasons we all have different coloured skin is because we have evolved to be able to absorb the optimum amount of Vit D from the sun (or rather for the sun to catalyse our absorption). Those in very sunny climes have darker skin so they don't overload; us peely wallies are that way because we have such brief windows. Interestingly, it's why Inuits have darker skin than, say, Scandinavians, because they eat so much fish. Very clever, Nature.

Vit D deficiency is caused by a mismatch between your current environment and what you evolved for. So someone whose ancestors lived in the Congo and is now in Stornoway really needs to eat a lot of herring. It's compounded by inner city living eg not having a garden, being inside most of the time. And also strikes some Asian populations because of vegetarian diets and processed flours used in eg chapatis, and because of a culture of covering up, especially girls, and staying at home.

I can't find anything online which shows the incidence of Rickets amongst caucasian children in Britain who play outside regularly (15 mins a day) and have a good diet. Is there anything? Have there been cases? Where should I be looking?

If it genuinely is a problem, I will calm down. But at the moment I just wonder to what extent this national, indiscriminatory push is motivated by the Government's desire not to be seen as racially profiling (but we SHOULD profile for some conditions, because your ethnicity does correlate with various issues and potential issues) and/or because they're using some research funded by whoever it is manufactures the supplements (I have no evidence of this because again I can't find anything).

So, do I calm down, or do I fire something off to whoever is in charge of briefing Health Visitors? It just seems yet another thing to beat nervous, unsure new Mums with. For the vast majority of whom, if I'm correct, this is a complete non-issue.

[Thenapoleonofcrime]

Whybe I really think you should look more carefully at the website, for a start it states clearly that children under 5 are in the 'at risk' group and then details the DoH guidance that children under 5 should be given Vit D drops! So- you are not following this at all.

However, now you are worrying about over-supplementation, which you couldn't possibly have, as you don't supplement.

Over-supplementation is not impossible, but it's very rare. If you read the BMJ article, in one of the responses from a lab testing Vit D, they say about 70% of those suspected of having low Vit D do have it, which is an extremely hit rate. The chances of over-supplementation are very low, especially as you don't even take any!

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Not really 25mcg is 2.5 the RDA ( I think) and most multivitamins etc will contain the RDA.

Mega doses of any vitamin can have pretty bad effects.

[squoosh]

I'm evangelical about telling psoriasis sufferers I meet to have their Vitamin D levels checked.

[Thenapoleonofcrime]

I'm not having a go, by the way, I didn't supplement, it didn't register with me as important to do so at the time. Now one of my dd's has a condition that may or may not be related to low Vit D and it has focused my mind. I wish I had.

You don't have to follow the DoH guidelines for your child though, it is your choice, indeed it is on a website called 'Lifestyle choices', so no-one is going to come round and enforce this!

[Peanut14]

I don't understand why you are digging your heels In about this. You don't want to give your children the drops then don't but I don't understand why you are belittling the HV, they are only trying to prevent illness that can be prevented by giving supplements. If you're that confident get the test done and tell your HV the result if you want to get her off your back (but you don't want to get the test done either).

[WhyBeHappyWhenYouCouldBeNormal]

I was talking about the over supplement because if you don't test yourself before taking any vitamin, how will you know if you already have the right amount of vit d, and then load it up even more.

My grandfather is actually terribly ill from eating too much iron over his life, because he didn't realise he had a condition that meant that he stored 1000 fold what he actually needed.

I realise pretty much all of you aren't having a go at me by the way - but sometimes I struggle to tell if you are speaking from a knowledgable position that I can and should trust or if some of you are just parrot phrasing what someone else has told you, which turns out to be rubbish. NO OFFENCE INTENDED!

[Timeisawastin]

Quote: My grandfather is actually terribly ill from eating too much iron over his life, because he didn't realise he had a condition that meant that he stored 1000 fold what he actually needed.

That isn't even remotely relevant to the conversation here. If your Grandfather has Haemachromatosis then he has probably eaten a completely normal amount of iron all his life, he just had an inborn error of metabolism which doesn't allow him to process it properly. It's a terrible example of why not to take supplements!

The evidence is all out there as to why northern europeans need supplements, even without testing most of us are likely to be deficient. It doesn't warrant argument.

[Timeisawastin]

I am an ex-registered nurse btw. One of the reasons I gave up my registration was my illness caused by Vit D deficiency!

[StillWishihadabs]

I don't want to out myself but I attended an international conference in September as part of my cpd (continuing professional development) where they presented some not yet published but highly compelling evidence for universal vitamin d supplementation.

[WhyBeHappyWhenYouCouldBeNormal]

my grandfathers condition is relevant - if we are talking about people walking into a shop, picking up a bottle of pills and then taking them believing that they are doing good without actually understanding how much their bodies need or really understanding how much they are taking or what side effects it could have then I believe that's a problem. Had he wondered in and picked up multi vits with iron, after reading it would do him good then it could have been ever worse for him.

i'm very wary of blanket advice saying that everyone should take this, or do that as I realise that everyone's needs are different.

[WhyBeHappyWhenYouCouldBeNormal]

"not yet published but highly compelling evidence for universal vitamin d supplementation."

Sounds interesting. Am working my way through some of the resources people have mentioned.

[Thenapoleonofcrime]

Whybe that's why I have directed you towards some summary articles in medical journals rather the NHS website so you can weigh up the evidence for yourself. Go to the 'PubMed' website www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/, type in Vit D and hundreds of scientific studies will pop up.

All drs and scientists would be the first to admit, however, that much of what they do is based on weighing up the evidence and theories that may turn out to be wrong in the future. The whole Vit D story is indeed an example of that, the recommended daily amount of D is now considered very low and some new theories about why D is very important in auto-immune conditions have come out.

You won't get a right or wrong answer, it's a best guess by the medical profession. You might wonder why so many Northern European governments like Sweden not only recommend but pay for Vit D drops however. Our own government has been accused of being behind the curve on the issue.

[StillWishihadabs]

Ok so the theoretical risk with vit d supplementation is a calcium receptor mutation which means that increasing vitamin d levels could cause a high calcium ( this is what was thought of as vitamin d overdose previously)this is analogous to your gf not being able to metabolise iron.. For me and my dcs I decided that the potential of them having this rare receptor defect was massively outweighed by the potential benefits of vitamin d. If you are worried about this get your dcs bone profile (calcium,phosphate and vit d) done before you start the supplements then checked after a couple of months.

[StillWishihadabs]

Btw this was in Italy which have many more hours of sunshine than the uk .

[CauldronOfFrogsLegs]

Thanks for this thread, full of information. I have realised I am quite ignorant on this subject!

[SpeakerOut]

It would be very difficult to overdose on vitamin D. You might find this link useful LINK

video explain it all quite well.

Whybe Your Grandfathers condition is irrelevant. Iron is totally different to vitamin D. Iron is well known to be toxic in high doses. There has been huge amounts of research on vitamin D and toxicity only happens in prolonged very high doses. A little reading will confirm this for you.

[Rainydayblues]

Excellent video speaker the NHS doesn't half take a long time to catch up with new research - but you can wait till they do if you don't mind taking the risk! I am on very high doses and I get tested every month.

[SpeakerOut]

It's a very good website Rainy and has a lot of links to articles vitamindwiki.com/VitaminDWiki

[stinkingbishop]

Sorry, OP here! Apologies for absence but life cruelly intervened in my MNing .

I've just skimmed all the posts and, whilst I don't agree with all of them, I wanted to thank everyone for taking the time to post, and all the links to articles. I'm going to take the time to review everything so I can make a more educated decision. I can definitely see that I was getting a bit stubborn about it on point of principle and that it's not as clear cut as I'd thought.

To the poster comparing it to the hysteria over MMR though...I disagree. In that case there was clear evidence that the vaccine worked, and absolutely no causal evidence (just a willful misinterpretation) of a downside. It's similarly clear evidence that I'm after here. So I can make an informed decision in the same way I have with vaccines (and therefore given them all, including BCG at 6 weeks because we were in an at risk area), etc.

When I posted the original question I had (maybe wrongly) assumed that the evidence only showed Vit D deficiency (and Rickets as the main result - I didn't know about the potential links to other conditions) being an issue for people with darker skins/indoor lifestyle/poor diet. And that the standard line was still that for fair skinned children spending 15 mins outdoors and eating a diet that included fish it just wasn't a concern. I had thought there was no evidence of it being a risk for my family, and that supplementing would be a waste of time and money. Another potential battlefront opening up in the high chair. And a slippery slope to, well, let's just give them EVERYTHING, just in case, because what's the harm.

Well, the harm is, I think, apart from the money going from our pockets to vitamin manufacturers at a time when the nation is watching pennies, is a general nibbling away at maternal confidence and gut feel. Which is important. I think we all know, deep down, if our children are missing something, if they're not quite right...or do we? Do we get to the point where we become reliant on those we see as more expert than us?

Finally, another evidence request...there's a fair few of you who've been diagnosed as an adult. Does anyone know if you more likely to be deficient as an adult? I'm sure I read somewhere that there are various other conditions and lifestyle choices that deplete it/lessen your absorption which just wouldn't be applicable in infancy eg alcohol (not that I'm saying that's what's caused it for all/any of you!!!)

Anyway, it's late, so will read properly anon. But thanks again for the time everyone's taken. MN is brilliant. Proper, grown up discussion .

[PomBearWithAnOFRS]

I was a bit "meh" about it and dismissive, but then one of my friends was diagnosed with actual rickets
She has been in some considerable pain for quite a while, and the diagnosis took a while, it has been awful for her, and she still isn't "right" a year later.
She has an allotment and spends all her spare time there and/or boating, walks everywhere, eats really heathily, and is the last person you would think would have any vitamin deficiency, let alone rickets.

[Rainydayblues]

Fantastic response from the OP.

The truth is they still don't know very much about Vitamin D and the role it plays in the body. The disease I have is a mystery to the medical world, they've only just conducted a study that suggests Vitamin D is implicated but they don't know how, they don't know whether my condition uses up massive quantities of Vit D or whether it prevents absorption or whether sufferers were deficient to begin with and the condition arises from a defiency. In the past they just haven't seen the need to test for Vitamin D and there probably hasn't been the need there is now. The cover up in the sun message has never been balanced with the get some Vit d message.

I have my kids on supplements - I hate supplements and I've always felt passionately about a healthy diet but fear my kids do not spend enough time outdoors with skin exposed and I do believe that the lack of Vitamin D is contributing to the growing health problems we are experiencing in the 21st Century.

After reading another thread where the documentary Fat Sick and Nearly Dead was recommended I watched it with my kids and we are now going to embark on a green smoothie adventure - we can all learn something new through debate and discussion - waiting on the Goverment to look after our health is placing a lot of faith in the establishment....faith I don't have!

[nowwearefour]

Can someone explain the levels needed to me pls? I have checked the sites suggested here and for children one of them says 2500-3000 IU is the recommended daily amount. My dds multivitamin has 7ug or 280 IU which doesn't seem anything like enough? I find these things so confusing! One if my dds demonstrates many of the symptoms set out here for deficiency and many gp tests have failed to identify the problem. I will take her to be tested.

[owlie07]

Just wanted to say thanks for such an interesting thread. I had no idea Vitamin D deficiency could be so serious

[BranchingOut]

The BMJ link upthread said 400 iu.

Good thread, I have ordered some super D3 from a link and one of the tongue sprays for me, with the hope of persuading my son to take it. I was deficient last year and then my levels recovered, but I think I need to keep an eye on it.

Now also worried about my DS's levels. :(

[Kewcumber]

OP I am an adult diagnosee (as it were!) I don't drink at all (or at least hadn't drunk for years when I was diagnosed) and had also spent part of my childhood years in Africa which potentially could be why I didn't develop it until an adult or it could be linked to other (significant) health problems I had at the time - I'm not sure how easy it is to know. I certainly have multiple vitamin absorption problems (B12, Iron and D) one of which is autoimmune based, one is suspected to be autoimmune but not worth testing for as treatment is the same so I'm interested to see suggestions of an autoimmune link upthread.

The problem with saying that you feel like you chould be able to tell yourself if your child is missing something is that many vitamin deficiencies aren't immediately apparent until you are very very deficient and the treatment at that stage is often more invasive eg my Vit D injections.

BTW DS has vitamin D drops in juice so no need for "another battle"!