To think the new blanket ban on co-sleeping (new NICE guidelines warning of dangers of co-sleeping with under 1's announced today) may be going too far?

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Of course NICE have a duty to inform parents of research that can inform their parenting choices, particularly advising about any risk factors relating to SIDS.

But in proposing that all parents should be advised of dangers of co-sleeping during the first year have they perhaps got the balance wrong? Co-sleeping can (I believe from everything I've read) be relatively safe provided other risk factors, such as smoking and drinking or other drugs are not a factor too, and if steps are taken to avoid over-heating (duvets should be avoided?)

The adviser mentions that co-sleeping may make BFing easier, or be culturally preferred, but have they taken these things sufficiently into account in the way the advice has been put forward, and also the way it is being reported on the News (I watched the ITV news at lunch-time and found the advice given was rather strongly worded in my view)

I enjoyed co-sleeping with my dd and ds, and it worked well for us, also facilitating extended (or natural term) BFing. Being close to my babies was very important to them and me, and part of a whole approach to parenting which I feel has given them a very secure base from which to go out confidently and independently to explore the wider world.

Would be interested to know how others feel about this?

Would also say .... A couple of generations back we did have a cot death in the family - my granny's eldest dd. So I've always been particularly aware of how devastating it is and would of course do anything reasonable to minimise the risks, both for my own DC and for others.

SarcyMare, I used to get under the covers then put DS on top and in the crook of my arm? in his sleeping bag or with his cot blanket. That way there was no danger of him wriggling under the duvet. Sometimes needed a blanket round my shoulders for warmth. I course I could have rolled onto him so it wasn't entirely safe. Had to happen. Both he and DD were all-night nuzzlers.

The thing is, for the first few weeks of her life DD cried whenever she wasn't being held by someone.

I felt the same as ikea in that it was safer to take the risk with her in our bed but actually getting some sleep, than the extreme sleep deprivation caused by a baby that needed constant resettling. DH would pick her up, cuddle her till she stopped crying and went to sleep, gingerly place her back in her basket, get back in bed only for her to scream 2 seconds later. We tried a silent room, white noise, music, pitch black, nightlight, lights on, car seat, carrycot, Moses basket, in every possible combination. The longest sleep I had before co sleeping was 2 hours- and that was only because DH had taken the baby for a drive (but then we didn't want her in her car seat for too long as that carries risks too!). I think the only reason I survived that period was taking a long nap every evening on the sofa with DD skin to skin on my chest and DH watching us.

The night we accidentally fell asleep with her in our bed we got 4 hours solid. The next night she woke just 3 times.

I agree with Retropear. The dangers of cosleeping are far more clearcut than the risks of FF car seats but for some reason we're all supposed to ignore them. Maybe it's so we can spend the money we save on cots on £400 ERF seats...

Pleased to see so many responses, and to see I'm not alone in recognising the benefits of co-sleeping (because there are surely pros as well as cons?)

And yes, perhaps describing it as a "blanket ban" wasn't the best way I could have put it because obviously no-one can ban parents from doing this, but I was trying to get across the gist of the slightly altered guidelines.

Having read the new guidelines, as they are not that different from the old ones, and because of the benefits to us personally of co-sleeping, I'm pretty sure I would make the same choice to co-sleep again.

Though I might well take some of the good advice here about keeping duvets very low and beneath sleeping position of baby. Have to admit we used a duvet pretty casually with ds, though earlier with dd I remember us being a bit more careful and she slept higher in bed above level of duvet, with her own little blankie < ahhh >

I agree with thumbwitch that the statistics are misleading. I would like to see the statistics of co-sleeping safely (without a duvet, non smoking parents and the bed arrangement suitable, not on a sofa etc) compared to other other forms to get a realistic idea.

Interestingly the article in the independent clearly states that sudden infant death syndrome is seen as a 'seperate' cause of death to suffocation caused by co sleeping. So actually trends were found in the research but no definite or direct causal link between co sleeping and sids was found. Research can be interpreted in so many different ways. While I don't dispute there is an argument for not co sleeping I really think that if you feel strongly about it then the best thing to do is not take guidelines at absolute face value but examine the research outcomes yourself and make an informed choice.

I agree mixing it all up doesn't help. And even if you were co sleeping safely but then rolled onto the baby, I wouldn't class that as a SIDS death, it is surely suffocation same as if the baby got squished under a sofa cushion? My understanding of SIDS is that it is unexplained.

You do have to consider the effects of sleep deprivation. It is same as if a baby screams hysterically in a rf seat, ff IS the safer option. If baby won't latch on, a bottle is obviously the best option. Stats don't give you a definite black and white course of action.

I see where you are coming from Retropear but if I were to have a baby tomorrow, (this won't be happening) not only would I co-sleep, but I would also wean at six months plus, regardless of what current guidelines said.

Why do we need to be so micro managed as a society? None of these things existed 40 years ago, we have no common sense anymore, and can't seem to make any sort of decision for ourselves.

We are an infantalized, codependent mess of a generation.

I have a DS of 15 weeks and on two occasions I have had him in bed with me.

Both times it was about 5am after his early morning feed and I just wanted him to go back to sleep quicker. I did it for my benefit, not for any benefit to DS. I didn't intend to fall asleep with him but I just dropped off

I felt very uneasy on both occasions when I woke up and found DS next to me. Sleeping with him is never something I would purposely do.

I used to enjoy co-sleeping a lot, it was magical to be half-awake drowsing next to his little body, skin to skin

Now after husband and MIL have been on and on about the possibility of suffocation I feel too worried to enjoy it sighs

Not that that's a rational argument in any way, but I miss that lovely magical joy

You can't see the stats, today. The data wasn't recorded at the time of the studies, most of which are very old now. New data is not available because the rate of SIDS is now very low - under 300 per year out of just over 723,000 babies born (these are stats from 2010). Out of the 723,000 there were 3714 stillbirths in that year, so say 720,000 live births. 300 is not enough to generalise over a population level, and not everybody who suffers a cot death would be willing to partake in a study about it. Plus it's unusual for a study to take a whole year just to gather respondents (although I suppose you could look at a previous year, but again, not everybody will want to participate in research). Then, even if you had your 300, not all of those families would have been bedsharing. You'd have to separate all of the babies who were sleeping in cots, prams or car seats at the time of death, all of the families who were co sleeping unsafely, possibly any cases where there was a question mark as to the cause of death (I don't know if these get included in statistics), and possibly any families who had other known risk factors such as involvement of drugs or alcohol, or being smokers. So the sample size becomes smaller and smaller, and the smaller it gets, it's just not reliable.

We should be thankful that the number is so small, of course, but it does mean it's very unlikely we'll ever get answers in this way. I think the only way we will ever get an answer is if scientists ever manage to establish a genetic or otherwise medical link.

If anybody wants to read about the safety and the benefits of co sleeping I really highly recommend "Three in a Bed" by Deborah Jackson.

Ha yes, if anyone says on here 'should I give my child a bit of puréed carrot before the stroke of midnight on their 26 week birthday?' they will get shouted at and told that the guidelines are quite clear on this.

Same with breastfeeding and that the WHO say you should breastfeed until at least 2 blah blah blah.

But because the co-sleeping guidelines don't suit certain agendas, then its all 'I'd be interested to see how this research was conducted' / 'I'm not interested in guidelines I will do what's best for us'.

Agree with those saying about following guidelines as and when they suit

I guess I have my own agenda as I don't think I would get a wink of sleep if 3 month old DD was in her with us - I really don't get co-sleeping at all but each to their own!

Having said that, we do one of those open 'side car' cots which are also known as 'co-sleeping' cots, but I don't really class it as co-sleeping as she effectively has her own bed, its just attached to ours? It's bloody brilliant by the way, and the one thing I would recommend to all new parents!

I live in Sweden too the cosleeping must be regional it is absolutely not 'normal' where I live. I was given a single bed, quilt and cot for ds the 2 nights in hospital.
I was advised it is not recommend due to sids but as with all guidance (feeding, weaning, etc) it is just that, so do what suits your family.

I co-sleep and we also waited until 6 months to introduce other foods.

I couldn't see any benefit to giving foods whereas I see huge benefits of co-sleeping so I feel the benefits outweigh the possibly very small rise in sids risk especially as I breastfeed and we are a non-smoking family, ds was a large full term baby, I would possibly rethink if my family had other sids risk factors.

Retropear couldn't have put it better myself.

Having the baby cuddle into you provides quite a bit of heat. Plus a blanket over your feet or up to your waist as someone said upthread.

I love co-sleeping until the baby becomes a toddler and indulges in acrobatic feeding positions while thwacking everyone else in the bed

In the interests of being fair, my personal take on guidelines - I co slept because I could see huge benefit from it, I followed safety advice that I could find. I think co sleeping is great but I disapprove of unsafe co sleeping and would try my best to advise someone against unsafe practice if they asked.

I weaned at five months because DS was crawling over me and grabbing food. No, I'm not sure how he was crawling at five months either but I distinctly remember him being very insistent and it being impossible to eat in front of him because he would lunge at you. I did BLW though not baby rice etc, with the theory being if they're coordinated enough to get it to their mouth and swallow, then their internal development is probably caught up too. I'm not keen on people feeding three month old babies who can barely swallow, nor feeding perfectly happy seeming 4/5 month olds just because they drink a lot of milk or don't sleep "well".

I breastfed until well over the ideal recommended time, but I didn't do so because of guidelines, it was just what I knew, my family all breastfed, it seemed normal to me. I would breastfeed even if a new super formula existed which had been tested over a long period of time and was proven to be better for babies. I like breastfeeding, it is convenient for me, end of.

Erm, what other guidelines. I used a rear facing car seat until DS couldn't fit into it any more but I didn't buy an extended one. Kept him in the Group 1 seat until he was 18kg but let family members etc take him out in a high backed booster from the age of four. I vaccinated him late because I got accosted by some anti vaccine people and it took me ages to make up my mind but he had all of them. During pregnancy I didn't avoid runny eggs or 99 flake ice creams but I did avoid alcohol and stopped smoking and kept my caffeine intake below the limit (which was normal for me anyway). I took folic acid but nothing else.

Can't think of any other guidelines off the top of my head.

Oh and we were advised that it is less risk to co-sleep if the baby is "cocooned" by the mother. You curl up into a C shape, just bring up knees a little, and the baby plops in the space created. Then if husband rolls over, they're less likely to squish bambino.

No alcohol, no drugs, so if you're on pain meds etc I'd do a bit more research before co-sleeping.

Sarcy, put the baby on top of the duvet, and a blanket on top of the baby. A really humongous duvet works well here. I also used an orthopaedic pillow (think shaped memory foam) she slept in the groove down the middle.

Coslept till dd could roll over and possibly crawl off the bed. Then cot all the way. Godsend for bf at all hours of the night.

No, don't put baby on top of the duvet. A duvet is soft so it's a suffocation hazard, and it also reflects body heat so it's an overheating risk too.

The duvet really does need to be away from the baby I'm afraid until they're 1 year old.

Most other guidance is clearer cut. Breast is best. Weaning before 6 months isn't recommended. Baby in the same room as you for 6 months. As mothers we have to follow what suits our babies and our family as a whole.

The co-sleeping guidelines always read like scaremongering and there is a lack of detail.

Is there any studies that compare SIDS rates in co-sleeping vs cot? No-one ever seems to declare cots unsafe.

I would consider guidelines on weaning and co-sleeping to be quite similar to be honest.

Weaning - safest is to wait til 26 weeks, but if you wean before then make sure it's never before 17 weeks and stick to just fruit, veg and rice.

Sleeping - safest is a cot in your room, but if you do co-sleep then make sure it is never on a sofa, no pillows/duvets near the baby, no drugs/alcohol, only next to the breastfeeding mother

I understand the reasoning behind both guidelines, and with both I took what I felt was the best route for me and my babies within those guidelines (which for us was breastfeeding, safe co-sleeping and solids at around 5 months).